AJ McCarron

[skinz2winz]

really i have to explain steve deberg to you mitz

This should be fun...

 

[Sharkinva]

This should be fun...

The Cliff notes version...

Deberg was a stats monster before there was such a thing. He was always good enough to ALMOST get there, and be replaced by a younger more impressive QB.

 

[ehb5]

Cousins carried this team on his back. In spite of shitty wr play, average at best defense, the worst starting running back in the NFL, a ridiculous amount of injuries, a coach that sends mixed signals by benching him for not being careful with the ball and then later criticizing him for not taking enough risks despite throwing for 4000 + yards, and the constant DC/media circus.

Its like you havent even watched him play. He is incredibly accurate and drops dimes. He's sneaky athletic and has a very quick release. There is more of an argument to be made that he is UNDERRATED.

He's by far the best skins QB of my life time.

Skins go 4-12 last year with Alex Smith instead of Cousins.

No

 

[ehb5]

I am going to politely point in the direction of DVOA here:

Unweighted DVOA by year in KC just for fun; bolded being playoff years

2013: 9th
2014: 19th
2015: 6th
2016: 14th
2017: 30th

Weighted

2013: 14th
2014: 20th
2015: 2nd
2016: 14th
2017: 32nd

Only once did he have a bottom ten D- this past year; which was without Ford, Berry, while Johnson and Parker had fallen off a cliff; then overextending role players such as Daniel Sorenson.

Other footnotes:

2013 had both primary edge rushers in Hali and Houston get hurt in the later part of the year, and Houston again in the playoff game; fueling a... undesirable set of circumstances that led to critical failure against the Colts.

2014: bad run D, lacked CB's; Sean Smith was a 1 man crew there. PPG was mostly deceiving though the passrush may have masked issues. This was Houston's 20+ sack season. Derrick Johnson tore his achilles the first time this year. Their primary ILB was an entity called Josh Mauga after week 1. Ron Parker emerged, but at CB he was overmatched at times.

2015: Jaye Howard (this was pre-hip injury) broke out while several players broke out and mostly stayed healthy. Houston unfortunately had Ron Parker leg whip him and compromised his ACL. Hali begins to show additional age as Dee Ford flounders. Marcus Peters and Sean Smith played their only year together. Curiously, Houston plays a playoff game with a compromised (see stretched) ACL and is... a non factor against the Texans and Patriots predictably.

2016: Justin Houston misses most of the season and isn't quite the same but still pretty good when he returned. Hali looks done, but fortunately Ford emerges to cover slack. Derrick Johnson tears his achilles again late in the season leaving Ramik Wilson and special teamer DJ Alexander (Probowler!) at ILB; the latter was so bad in an upset loss to the Titans at home the Chiefs benched him for a creature called Terrance Smith. Steven Nelson quietly has a decent year in the slot, but is up and down. Sean Smith leaves for Oakland. Jaye Howard also has a hip injury. Allen Bailey also accumulates injuries. Terrance Mitchell weirdly looks dominant the past month of the season to hide issues at CB. Jaye Howard is later cut. Chris Jones looks like a stud however.

2017: Houston is back to elite form, but Ford and Berry are hurt immediately; with Ford not being effective when on the field, injury or not. Steven Nelson has a core muscle surgery and misses about half the season, does not look nearly as good as in 2016. Derrick Johnson fails to recover from a 2nd achilles tear, and looks very JAGish. Ragland emerges as a two down thumper, but plugs in a dam. Ron Parker has his most ineffective year as a Chief. At this point, there Chris Jones, Houston, and Peters along with a couple JAGS are not a defense make. Ragland is useful, however.

2013-2016 you can reasonable argue were good defenses independent of their PPG and yardage even if circumstance keeps them out of the top 10. 2017 and 2015 are completely indisputable in their terribleness and excellence (sans the playoffs where their megastar Edge was compromised) respectively.

The 15th ranked offense in 2016 had Spencer Ware. Ware was 10th in scrimmage yards despite missing 2 games with a concussion at 1,368 yards. In scrimmage yards per game, Ware was 8th. In YPC, Ware had a 4.30 YPC and a 4.62 career mark. The Chiefs were also... 21st in rushing attempts in 2016.

I think you two are kinda arguing different things. What your posting is a more accurate measure of where their Defense actually was compared to the rest of the league. But in terms of evaluation Smith's success he kinda has a point that the points they gave up is all that matters.

 

[ehb5]

Odd thing to say so assuredly, about a guy who posted high-quality numbers in his only stint as a starter.

I suppose you thought the same about Jimmy G?

Hes a 5th round pick with 4 pretty meh games, and 1 awful game who couldnt beat out Andy Dalton in 4 years. The expectation should be that hes pretty bad.

Jimmy G is not comparable.

 

[ehb5]

As was Jimmy G, as was Tom Brady, as was Kurt Warner... What is your point?

Are we just going to list off examples that support both of our stances? We both have some which support us. It seems like a moot point to go over those lists.

How does Matt Flynn not panning out = McCarron won't pan out?

Flynn's failure to successfully pan out into a good NFL QB, has nothing to do with McCarron.

I never exclaimed that every backup QB who has had success, will be a good starter.

A young QB who looked good in limited NFL action like McCarron, however. Has just as good of a chance to pan out into a franchise QB, as a young hot college prospect. They also bust on a regular basis...

The bottom line, is that you cannot dispute that McCarron played at a high level in his stint as Cincy's starter and made himself an intriguing option for teams to look at.

Its not that McCarron cant pan out, its that treating him as much more than the 5th rounder he is is foolish. And 5th rounders usually fail.

 

[ehb5]

There are examples. I was jumping the gun on that, no doubt. Not many, however, regarding a young QB in his prime. Coming off his best season.

Romo's another case where there were some extreme circumstances with back-to-back broken collarbones and then another long-term injury within a short span.

The underlying point here. Is that Cincy sticking with Dalton is not an indictment of McCarron. As he played very well, with absolutely zero experience. When thrust into a difficult situation.

Ehh it kinda is. Dalton isnt good. If Mccarron was anything special Cincy could have easily moved on from Dalton. They had the opportunity. And its not like Daltons been good the past 2 years.

Also McCarron was thrown into a pretty good situation honestly. That team was pretty loaded with talent especially on offense.

 

[ehb5]

I guess for me paying that much for a QB even Glennon type money just doesn't seem worth it if you don't view the guy as the future at the position

Well, whoever signs McCarron WOULD be making a that commitment to him. So, I am confused.

I would rather use that money to then surround the rookie with more talent to give them a chance to succeed.

I guess I don't get it... You need a starting QB. Trubisky (like MaHomes) was supposed to be a project. The Bears (like whoever else would have drafted him) did not want him to start this past season. Would you have had the Bears start Mark Sanchez? Their other QB on the roster. They needed a bridge guy, and that's what a QB costs. I don't see what the other option was. The Glennon signing also put up the smokescreen that they wouldn't be interested in Trubisky come draft time. Which helped them stay covert leading up to the draft.

Obviously, you can point out that they could have signed a better QB. lol. However, from a monetary standpoint. It wouldn't have mattered and Trubisky was their future anyway. The Bears cap space situation is quite cozy, and the Glennon deal didn't really affect that.

Dude the Glennon deal was laughably bad even at the time.

 

[richig07]

Dude the Glennon deal was laughably bad even at the time.

How so?

 

[richig07]

Ehh it kinda is. Dalton isnt good. If Mccarron was anything special Cincy could have easily moved on from Dalton. They had the opportunity. And its not like Daltons been good the past 2 years.

Also McCarron was thrown into a pretty good situation honestly. That team was pretty loaded with talent especially on offense.

Also McCarron was thrown into a pretty good situation honestly. That team was pretty loaded with talent especially on offense.

And he played really well.

Ehh it kinda is.

It is anything besides that...

They just paid a QB 100 million and he was playing at an all-pro level that year. They decided to stick with the veteran who they had committed to, instead of starting over with the unknown. That simple.

 

[richig07]

Its not that McCarron cant pan out, its that treating him as much more than the 5th rounder he is is foolish. And 5th rounders usually fail.

McCarron proved in that month stint that he deserves a shot. He's proven just as much as any QB who will go in the 1st this year.

 

[richig07]

Hes a 5th round pick with 4 pretty meh games, and 1 awful game who couldnt beat out Andy Dalton in 4 years. The expectation should be that hes pretty bad.

Jimmy G is not comparable.

2-1 Record
853 yards
6 TD's
2 INT's
66.7% CMP
97.1 QB Rating


That's not "meh"... stop saying it's "meh".

He didn't do that under BB in NE either, with an eventual SB team. He had 3 very good starts to Jimmy G's 1.5. It is 100% comparable.

McCarron also led a clutch 15 point, 4th quarter comeback in that "awful" game you speak of. Which would have won the Bengals a post-season game (something Dalton never did) had Jeremy Hill and Pacman Jones not gone full retard. One of the worst implosions I've seen.

You're being very, very dishonest.

 

[ehb5]

How so?

15 mil for a bad 28 year old qb?

 

[ehb5]

Also McCarron was thrown into a pretty good situation honestly. That team was pretty loaded with talent especially on offense.

And he played really well.

Ehh it kinda is.

It is anything besides that...

They just paid a QB 100 million and he was playing at an all-pro level that year. They decided to stick with the veteran who they had committed to, instead of starting over with the unknown. That simple.

He played ok. Up and down really. When surrounded by talent. In 5 games.

You'e ignoring the 2 following years where they could have swapped. Nobody is saying Dalton should've been benched off that season. But in the last 2? If McCarron was worth something yea probably.

He also isn't an unknown to them. I think they have a good idea if he's better than Dalton or not. And Dalton isn't a very high bar to meet.

 

[ehb5]

McCarron proved in that month stint that he deserves a shot. He's proven just as much as any QB who will go in the 1st this year.

Neither of those things are true.

 

[ehb5]

2-1 Record
853 yards
6 TD's
2 INT's
66.7% CMP
97.1 QB Rating


That's not "meh"... stop saying it's "meh".

He didn't do that under BB in NE either, with an eventual SB team. He had 3 very good starts to Jimmy G's 1.5. It is 100% comparable.

McCarron also led a clutch 15 point, 4th quarter comeback in that "awful" game you speak of. Which would have won the Bengals a post-season game (something Dalton never did) had Jeremy Hill and Pacman Jones not gone full retard. One of the worst implosions I've seen.

You're being very, very dishonest.

He was the QB for 5 games.
4 of them were meh to decent. None were outright good. Game managery at best. The 5th one was awful.

All of Jimmy G's start were better than any of mccarrons. Both on film and by #s.

Garoppolo was a 2nd round pick not a 5th round pick.

Garoppolo was behind Brady not Dalton.

That's a prety big difference dude.

Who gives a shit if he almost led a comeback? For one he didn't even have any passing yards on one of their touchdown drives. Secondly - they needed a comeback because he was playing like trash and costing them the game!

And I'm the one who's being dishonest? Riiiight.

 

[richig07]

15 mil for a bad 28 year old qb?

Yes... a bottom 5 starting QB salary, for a bottom 5 starter. McCown, Hoyer and Tyrod were the only starting QB's (not still on rookie deals) heading into NFL training camps paid less than him last season. Any other questions?

 

[richig07]

He was the QB for 5 games.
4 of them were meh to decent. None were outright good. Game managery at best. The 5th one was awful.

All of Jimmy G's start were better than any of mccarrons. Both on film and by #s.

Garoppolo was a 2nd round pick not a 5th round pick.

Garoppolo was behind Brady not Dalton.

That's a prety big difference dude.

Who gives a shit if he almost led a comeback? For one he didn't even have any passing yards on one of their touchdown drives. Secondly - they needed a comeback because he was playing like trash and costing them the game!

And I'm the one who's being dishonest? Riiiight.

The 5th one was awful.

He led a 15 point, 4th quarter comeback against a very good defense in the post-season. 4 games into his career. LMAO

Garoppolo was a 2nd round pick not a 5th round pick.

What's your point? Brady was a 6th. Warner was undrafted.

Garoppolo was behind Brady not Dalton.

Again... so what? This is irrelevant pertaining to McCarron's ability as a starter.

That's a prety big difference dude.

Literally... There is ZERO difference.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

The Cliff notes version...

Deberg was a stats monster before there was such a thing. He was always good enough to ALMOST get there, and be replaced by a younger more impressive QB.

Steve DeBerg Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Stats monster huh? Some of you must have selective memories or are just making some of this up. Outside of his 1990 season nothing really looks that great or screams "great #s for a QB". Oh well - whatever supports your argument.

 

[richig07]

Who gives a shit if he almost led a comeback? For one he didn't even have any passing yards on one of their touchdown drives. Secondly - they needed a comeback because he was playing like trash and costing them the game!

And I'm the one who's being dishonest? Riiiight.

And I'm the one who's being dishonest? Riiiight.

You are being dishonest on a delusional level. How did you think you'd get away with misrepresenting McCarron's rile in that comeback with the following statement?

For one he didn't even have any passing yards on one of their touchdown drives.

Yeah, but on the potential GW drive... The drive to take lead, with the season on the line (7 plays): McCarron (6 passes) 4/6 52 Yards 1 TD... (1 rush) 1 carry for 3 yards

• 
  
  
  • 1st and 10 at PIT 45
    (3:28 - 4th) (Shotgun) A.McCarron pass short middle to J.Hill to PIT 42 for 3 yards (R.Shazier) [A.Moats].
  • 2nd and 7 at PIT 42
    (2:57 - 4th) (Shotgun) A.McCarron pass short left to M.Jones ran ob at PIT 37 for 5 yards.
  • 3rd and 2 at PIT 37
    (2:52 - 4th) (Shotgun) A.McCarron pass incomplete short right. (Thrown Away)
  • 4th and 2 at PIT 37
    (2:46 - 4th) (Shotgun) A.McCarron pass short middle to M.Jones to PIT 28 for 9 yards (A.Moats).
  • 1st and 10 at PIT 28
    (2:15 - 4th) (Shotgun) A.McCarron scrambles left tackle to PIT 25 for 3 yards (S.Tuitt).
  • (2:00 - 4th) Two-Minute Warning
  • 2nd and 7 at PIT 25
    (2:00 - 4th) (Shotgun) A.McCarron pass incomplete short middle to M.Sanu.
  • 3rd and 7 at PIT 25
    (1:50 - 4th) A.J. Green 25 Yd pass from AJ McCarron (Two-Point Run Conversion Failed)