49ers' off-season; Cap Space $8,346,186.00

[imac_21]

Well, not includding designed plays for the runningback of course...

But even if 20% of the plays where the QB keeps the ball are designed runs or even options, that still leves almost 80% of the passing plays Bray would have no trouble running. That's not enough plays to get through a game or 2 while Kaep nurses an injury?

The read option is a growing part of our playbook. I don't see the point in taking a step backwards with our backup QB. Particularly if we're talking about someone as flawed as Tyler Bray. It isn't like we're discussing bringing Rodgers, Peyton or Brady in to be our backup. We're looking at rookies.

Would you be interested in bringing in a cover 2 OLB to backup Aldon and Brooks?

 

[NinerSickness]

Would you be interested in bringing in a cover 2 OLB to backup Aldon and Brooks?

He might not be a cover 2 OLB, but I'm extremely intersted in drafting Sean Porter to back up Brooks & Aldon. I could live with maybe a guy like Philip Wheeler from Oakland if he showers a couple of times before coming to the 'stick.

I'd be more interested in pursuing Osi Umenyiora though. Not only could he come in for Brooks in passing situations (and Aldon), but he could also come in as an end when the NT comes off the field (although another guy I like in that role spelling the DL is Cornelius Washington, but he'd take time to develop IMO).

I was complaining about the lack of depth on the DL last season, and I think the Niners need the starters to play much fewer snaps. OLBs too.

 

[imac_21]

He might not be a cover 2 OLB, but I'm extremely intersted in drafting Sean Porter to back up Brooks & Aldon. I could live with maybe a guy like Philip Wheeler from Oakland if he showers a couple of times before coming to the 'stick.

I'd be more interested in pursuing Osi Umenyiora though. Not only could he come in for Brooks in passing situations (and Aldon), but he could also come in as an end when the NT comes off the field (although another guy I like in that role spelling the DL is Cornelius Washington, but he'd take time to develop IMO).

I was complaining about the lack of depth on the DL last season, and I think the Niners need the starters to play much fewer snaps. OLBs too.

You're missing the point. Just as you wouldn't look for a cover-2 OLB to come in and back up Smith and Brooks because he wouldn't fit the defense, you don't look for a pocket passer with limited mobility to backup CK because he doesn't fit the offense.

 

[NinerSickness]

You're missing the point. Just as you wouldn't look for a cover-2 OLB to come in and back up Smith and Brooks because he wouldn't fit the defense, you don't look for a pocket passer with limited mobility to backup CK because he doesn't fit the offense.

But I WOULD bring in a cover 2 LB to back up those guys! You find the best players and fit the offense or defense around them, not the other way around.

Look who was the backup for Michael Vick this season.

And if Bray weren't so flawed (stuff on which he needs to work; "fixable" things), he'd be the #1 overall pick this year.

 

[imac_21]

But I WOULD bring in a cover 2 LB to back up those guys! You find the best players and fit the offense or defense around them, not the other way around.

Look who was the backup for Michael Vick this season.

And if Bray weren't so flawed (stuff on which he needs to work; "fixable" things), he'd be the #1 overall pick this year.

That's how you build a losing team. Grab a mess of random guys and try to build the scheme around them. Then repeat the next year with the new guys you add, then repeat the next year. Never establish any sort of consistency, just continue to build around your square pegs.


How much of the Eagles WCO was built around plays that involved Vick as a running threat by design?

How did the Eagles season turn out?

The two teams that jump out at me in the last few seasons that tried to build scheme around random players are the Snyder Redskins, and the 2011 and 2012 Eagles.

That's what you want to model your franchise after?

I'll pass.

 

[Bemular]

That's how you build a losing team. Grab a mess of random guys and try to build the scheme around them. Then repeat the next year with the new guys you add, then repeat the next year. Never establish any sort of consistency, just continue to build around your square pegs.


How much of the Eagles WCO was built around plays that involved Vick as a running threat by design?

How did the Eagles season turn out?

The two teams that jump out at me in the last few seasons that tried to build scheme around random players are the Snyder Redskins, and the 2011 and 2012 Eagles.

That's what you want to model your franchise after?

I'll pass.

This!!! I know NS is a friend of yours but I just don't understand him at all; he simply hasn't a lick of football sense or knowledge.

 

[NinerSickness]

That's how you build a losing team. Grab a mess of random guys and try to build the scheme around them. Then repeat the next year with the new guys you add, then repeat the next year. Never establish any sort of consistency, just continue to build around your square pegs.


How much of the Eagles WCO was built around plays that involved Vick as a running threat by design?

How did the Eagles season turn out?

The two teams that jump out at me in the last few seasons that tried to build scheme around random players are the Snyder Redskins, and the 2011 and 2012 Eagles.

That's what you want to model your franchise after?

I'll pass.

This is all hyperbole. I'm talking about getting a talented guy who does not fit the mold of what the team is currently doing... AS A BACKUP! Is it a good idea to have Darren Sproles run the ball 30 time a game? Of course not. Does that mean you don't bring him in to do certain things for the team?

And we're just talking about QBs. Is Russell Wilson anything like Matt Flynn? Flynn was supposed to be the starter. By your rationale, Seattle never would've drafted Wilson because he didn't fit what they were doing.

Is Tyrod Taylor the same style of QB as Joe Flacco? I'd say the Ravens are a successful franchise.

 

[imac_21]

This is all hyperbole. I'm talking about getting a talented guy who does not fit the mold of what the team is currently doing... AS A BACKUP! Is it a good idea to have Darren Sproles run the ball 30 time a game? Of course not. Does that mean you don't bring him in to do certain things for the team?

And we're just talking about QBs. Is Russell Wilson anything like Matt Flynn? Flynn was supposed to be the starter. By your rationale, Seattle never would've drafted Wilson because he didn't fit what they were doing.

Is Tyrod Taylor the same style of QB as Joe Flacco? I'd say the Ravens are a successful franchise.

yeah, Wilson and Flynn do play similar styles. Wilson never ran the read-option until late in the season in Seattle. At Wisconsin and NC State he was a pocket passer. He's more athletic than Flynn, but they are similar players.

With QB you aren't talking about working a guy in for a few touches here and there to add an element to the offense like Sproles. You're talking about adding a guy to the roster that may have to play QB for 3 or 4 weeks in a row.

But sticking with your Sproles thought, what new dimension does Bray bring to the team that Kaepernick doesn't? What game situations would you bring Kaep to the bench to put Bray in, assuming Kaep is healthy?

The Ravens are a successful franchise. What happens if Flacco gets injured? If he's not playing, how well does Taylor doing running their offense if he has to play for 4 weeks?

 

[threelittleturds]

The team with Young relied on his legs, but didn't have plays designed around the threat of him running like we do now with read option. A significant part of our offense in 2012 and presumably going forward, is plays designed for CK to take off with the ball. The offense, in the mid 90s, wasn't running stuff like QB power and read options.

We didn't have plays in the offense that were called with regularity in 95 and 96 that Young could run and Grbac couldn't.

If we were to draft Tyler Bray this year, there is a significant chunk of the playbook that he can't run. No defense is going to respect the QB keep option on any option play when it's being run by Tyler Bray.

Yeah, but for half the year Alex Smith wasn't running the pistol and the offense was averaging 369 yards per game, 23.625 PPG. When Kaep took over (including playoffs) and the pistol turned into a significant part of the playbook it jumped up to 391.6 yards per game and 28.8 PPG.

It'd only be a temporary regression of roughly 20 yards and 5 PPG if the team had to use Tolzien, or another QB who won't be respected in the pistol and the 49ers go back to traditional formations.

 

[NinerSickness]

yeah, Wilson and Flynn do play similar styles. Wilson never ran the read-option until late in the season in Seattle. At Wisconsin and NC State he was a pocket passer. He's more athletic than Flynn, but they are similar players.

Ok, then why are Bray & Kaep so different? Kaep is 10X faster than Bray. yes. But Bray can do EVERYTHING else Kaep does. Flynn can't do the read option; looks like Seattle did fine with plan B structuring the offense around him.

With QB you aren't talking about working a guy in for a few touches here and there to add an element to the offense like Sproles. You're talking about adding a guy to the roster that may have to play QB for 3 or 4 weeks in a row.

The Sproles example was in respose to the global, philosophical point of view you espoused; that's why I tried to bring the discussion back to just QBs & away from cover 2 LBs.

But sticking with your Sproles thought, what new dimension does Bray bring to the team that Kaepernick doesn't? What game situations would you bring Kaep to the bench to put Bray in, assuming Kaep is healthy?

None. Hense the backup, possible trade bait status. But you could say the same thing about Peyton Manning, to an extent, if he were the backup, despite the fact that Manning is a better QB.

The Ravens are a successful franchise. What happens if Flacco gets injured? If he's not playing, how well does Taylor doing running their offense if he has to play for 4 weeks?

Probably a little better than most teams would who lose their starting QB would be my guess. The Steelers sucked when Ben was out. Does that mean they should have invested a higher draft pick or more money into the backup QB position over the years? I'd say they've been pretty successfull.

 

[imac_21]

Yeah, but for half the year Alex Smith wasn't running the pistol and the offense was averaging 369 yards per game, 23.625 PPG. When Kaep took over (including playoffs) and the pistol turned into a significant part of the playbook it jumped up to 391.6 yards per game and 28.8 PPG.

It'd only be a temporary regression of roughly 20 yards and 5 PPG if the team had to use Tolzien, or another QB who won't be respected in the pistol and the 49ers go back to traditional formations.

That's assuming that the team wasn't already preparing the read option and pistol before Smith went down. I'm under the impression that the team was planning to move to Kaepernick and starting to install plays accordingly. We know the read option was already in the play book because Kaep ran it in limited snaps before the concussion.

We, presumably, won't be putting in plays for Tolzien, Bray, or whoever ends up backing up Kaepernick next year.

Furthermore, let's not assume that Tolzien or a rookie, or whoever we bring in as #2 will be as effective in whatever offense they take over as Smith was this year. Smith had a year and a half of prep as the starting QB to learn the Harbaugh/Roman offense. If Tolzien ends up playing in week 11 next year, I think it's a safe bet he won't have spent the last two preseasons and 30 or so weeks of season getting starter snaps in practice.

Now, here's the kicker.

Tell me why, when we're looking for a new #2 QB, we should not look for a guy that can run the same offense as Kaepernick will be running.

 

[NinerSickness]

Tell me why, when we're looking for a new #2 QB, we should not look for a guy that can run the same offense as Kaepernick will be running.

Because there aren't any out there worth mentioning. Maybe EJ Manuel, but I don't really see him as a pistol guy anyway.

 

[bigninerfan56]

Yeah, but for half the year Alex Smith wasn't running the pistol and the offense was averaging 369 yards per game, 23.625 PPG. When Kaep took over (including playoffs) and the pistol turned into a significant part of the playbook it jumped up to 391.6 yards per game and 28.8 PPG.

It'd only be a temporary regression of roughly 20 yards and 5 PPG if the team had to use Tolzien, or another QB who won't be respected in the pistol and the 49ers go back to traditional formations.

Great points. Both sides are throwing out extremes. Do teams draft players to fit their system? Yes. Do coaches adjust their system to play to a players strength? Yes. Both are true.

Harbaugh and Co. have shown they are smart enough NOT to pigeon hole themselves into one play/formation (read option/pistol). In choosing a QB, I'd rather have the better overall QB (regardless of skill set) because I know the coaching staff will adjust to his strengths.

P.S. I am not advocating for Bray or any other QB for that matter, I'll let the people who know more than I do that.

 

[imac_21]

Ok, then why are Bray & Kaep so different? Kaep is 10X faster than Bray. yes. But Bray can do EVERYTHING else Kaep does. Flynn can't do the read option; looks like Seattle did fine with plan B structuring the offense around him.

Seattle built the offense around Wilson and to his strengths because. . . . he's the QB there for the next 10+ years in theory. Just as our offense grew once Kaep took over, the Seahawk offense grew once Wilson took over. Was Seattle running the same offense in week 17 as they were in week 1? No. It grew leaps and bounds (it wasn't until about week 12 they even ran read option).

BTW, there are some rumours of Flynn being on the trade block this offseason.

Could we run the same offense with Bray as we do with Kaep? Obviously if you're going to your backup you will cut down on a lot of what you're doing, but could the scheme/general idea stay the same?

None. Hense the backup, possible trade bait status. But you could say the same thing about Peyton Manning, to an extent, if he were the backup, despite the fact that Manning is a better QB.

It might be a bit of a stretch to compare Bray to Manning, despite the Tennessee connection. I'm willing to bet that Manning can do a lot of things Bray can't. Starting with scaring the crap out of a defense.

I understand you are always looking to trade guys (now you're trading guys before we even get them on the team), but don't we first have to consider how the player fits in with the team? If we were to draft EJ Manuel instead of Bray, is there a rule that says we can't trade him? Both QBs have raw talent that requires quite a bit of coaching. One can do the same things as our current QB, though not to the same degree. The other, relative to what we currently have, is very limited.

Furthermore, look at the WRs that Bray played with at Tennessee: Patterson and Hunter. Two big bodied WRs who make plays in traffic. What kind of WRs do we have? Well, with Williams and Manningham healthy we have undersized WRs that rely more quickness than size. The two big current NFL WRs being talked about for us are Harvin and Wallace.

This taking Bray and removing him from his element.

Probably a little better than most teams would who lose their starting QB would be my guess. The Steelers sucked when Ben was out. Does that mean they should have invested a higher draft pick or more money into the backup QB position over the years? I'd say they've been pretty successfull.

Tyrod Taylor would do better than most running the same offense as Flacco? I'm going to strongly disagree that Taylor would do "better than most" running an offense that relies on accuracy and arm strength. Hell, the game he played in week 17 this year the Ravens completely revamped the offense and had him run the read option. He threw for less than 150 yards on 25 passes, 0 TDs, 1 INT.

Now, it's admittedly unfair to evaluate him based on this game because Rice didn't play, Smith didn't play, Boldin didn't play and so on.

But I think it's crazy to think he could run the offense Flacco runs. You don't think that would be a problem if he had to play for 4 weeks?

 

[threelittleturds]

That's assuming that the team wasn't already preparing the read option and pistol before Smith went down. I'm under the impression that the team was planning to move to Kaepernick and starting to install plays accordingly. We know the read option was already in the play book because Kaep ran it in limited snaps before the concussion.

We, presumably, won't be putting in plays for Tolzien, Bray, or whoever ends up backing up Kaepernick next year.

Furthermore, let's not assume that Tolzien or a rookie, or whoever we bring in as #2 will be as effective in whatever offense they take over as Smith was this year. Smith had a year and a half of prep as the starting QB to learn the Harbaugh/Roman offense. If Tolzien ends up playing in week 11 next year, I think it's a safe bet he won't have spent the last two preseasons and 30 or so weeks of season getting starter snaps in practice.

Now, here's the kicker.

Tell me why, when we're looking for a new #2 QB, we should not look for a guy that can run the same offense as Kaepernick will be running.

What about the Redskins and Cousins? I'm asking because I honestly don't know... but did they still rely heavily on the read-option when Cousins started that game against Cleveland I think it was? I was under the assumption that they fell back on more traditional plays since Cousins isn't capable of being RG3.

I'm not opposed to the idea of getting a guy who can do the stuff Kaep can do, I just don't think it's a requirement. I think it is too hard to accomplish, nobody else has been able to do it before... it's not like the Eagles and Falcons had little clones of Cunningham and Vick ready to go when they got hurt.

 

[imac_21]

What about the Redskins and Cousins? I'm asking because I honestly don't know... but did they still rely heavily on the read-option when Cousins started that game against Cleveland I think it was? I was under the assumption that they fell back on more traditional plays since Cousins isn't capable of being RG3.

I'm not opposed to the idea of getting a guy who can do the stuff Kaep can do, I just don't think it's a requirement. I think it is too hard to accomplish, nobody else has been able to do it before... it's not like the Eagles and Falcons had little clones of Cunningham and Vick ready to go when they got hurt.

I don't believe they ran read option with Cousins.

I think people are missing the point about getting a player that can run the same offense as Kaep. Vick has been brought up a few times as a reason it's not necessary, Young was, and now Cunningham. . .

However, those teams did not have a portion of their offense built around the QB's ability to run*, but instead the running abilities of the QBs was more improv/extend the play skill. Teams weren't running plays, short of QB sneak and draw, designed with the QB as a potential ball carrier. A significant portion of our offensive scheme is built around the idea that Kaep is a threat with his legs. We purposely scheme due to his ability to make plays with his legs.

It's one thing to run a WCO like we did with Young and Atlanta did with Vick that can take advantage of a QB's athleticism when a play breaks down. If the QB gets injured, you lose that scramble threat, but all the plays are still available (or at least the core plays. You may lose some of the peripheral plays when you go to a backup). Part of the core of our offense is built on the QB's ability to take off on plays designed for him to carry the ball.

There's a reason Ryan Mallett left Michigan when Rich Rodriguez was hired.


Disclaimer: was too young to really pay attention to Cunningham with the Eagles, especially in the pre-Sunday Ticket/NFL Network days

 

[NinerSickness]

It might be a bit of a stretch to compare Bray to Manning, despite the Tennessee connection. I'm willing to bet that Manning can do a lot of things Bray can't. Starting with scaring the crap out of a defense.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. What happens if, under Harbaugh, Bray starts scaring the crap out of opposing defenses? Would the lack of a read-option still be an achiles heel for the offense?

(now you're trading guys before we even get them on the team)

The Patriots traded Matt Cassell. The Eagles traded Kevin Kolb. Others have done the same with their backups. They turned out to be a great investments.

If we were to draft EJ Manuel instead of Bray, is there a rule that says we can't trade him?

Of course not. So what's your point there?

Tyrod Taylor would do better than most running the same offense as Flacco?

No, the Ravens would do better with their backup than most teams would do with their backups. Just about every team is screwed if the starting QB goes down unless you found a Tom Brady in the draft or you have Jeff Hostetler. This is kind of a non-sequitur.

And if Flacco went down & the Ravens sputtered, it would be because Taylor isn't a very good QB (which is yet to be determined), not because he doesn't run the same kind of offense.

What about the Vikings? Do you think they got creamed in the playoffs because Joe Webb doesn't run the same style of offense that Ponder does or because Joe Webb is an awful QB?

 

[threelittleturds]

Yeah, you're probably right that it wasn't as big chunk of the playbook as the pistol is... but when Cunningham and Vick were getting 100+ carries a year I have to imagine there were pages on pages in the playbook that had to do with them running or related plays like them picking on the spot vacated by the LB spying the run.

Anyway that is beside the point I'm trying to make... I don't think it would be a step back if the 49ers had to fall back on more traditional playcalling. If they can get a guy that can still effectively run the pistol then great, I just don't think it is a requirement for the #2 QB. I guess since they have been developing Tolzien for the last 2 years it is worth trying to find a guy who can run the pistol since presumably the QB whisperer worked some Magic on Tolzien and he is an adequate pocket passer for the traditional plays.

 

[MHSL82]

Now that Vick has restructured his deal, do you think the Eagles should go get Dixon, the player who played Kaep on the practice squad in SB week for the Ravens, as the backup? Now, Vick and Kaep are not the same obviously, but Dixon was rumored as a possibility for starting under Kelly due to his ties to Kelly. Or should they stick to Foles who may be better overall? (Dixon hasn't gotten starting consideration before but Foles has some experience. Foles is not a Kelly guy, it's reported, in terms of skill.)

 

[imac_21]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. What happens if, under Harbaugh, Bray starts scaring the crap out of opposing defenses? Would the lack of a read-option still be an achiles heel for the offense?

We're getting somewhere so you're going to throw out hypotheticals? What if he sucks? But my point has never been that Bray couldn't be a good NFL QB. My point is that we would have to re-structure the offense while he plays. That sets back the team.

The Patriots traded Matt Cassell. The Eagles traded Kevin Kolb. Others have done the same with their backups. They turned out to be a great investments.

So you found two examples (I'll throw some more out there: Hasselbeck and Schaub). That's over how many years (just focus on Cassell and Kolb). Since Cassell was traded there have been 4 seasons. How many backup QBs have been traded in that time?

Of course not. So what's your point there?

My point is that it's stupid to not look for a player with a similar skill set to Kaep. We don't gain anything by drafting Bray instead.

No, the Ravens would do better with their backup than most teams would do with their backups. Just about every team is screwed if the starting QB goes down unless you found a Tom Brady in the draft or you have Jeff Hostetler. This is kind of a non-sequitur.

Why would the Ravens do better than most teams? Also, you may want to revisit the question you're attempting to not answer. I didn't ask how the Ravens would do with Taylor at QB. I asked how Taylor would do running the same offense as Flacco.

And if Flacco went down & the Ravens sputtered, it would be because Taylor isn't a very good QB (which is yet to be determined), not because he doesn't run the same kind of offense.

This reads like you're saying that a team's QB does not have to be synchronized with his offense. Could Tom Brady be as good as Kaepernick in the offense we ran in the second half of the season?

What about the Vikings? Do you think they got creamed in the playoffs because Joe Webb doesn't run the same style of offense that Ponder does or because Joe Webb is an awful QB?

Is it black and white? Could it be that the Webb isn't good, but also that they attempted to re-invent the offense and bring in read-option because Webb couldn't run the same offense as Ponder?