The Seahawks have given up

[DHoey]

We weren't going to win with Wilson, period. Move on.

We got a pretty damn good haul back for someone who never led his team to a Super Bowl, never received a MVP vote, and doesn't fit the team's philosophy.

 

[Anointed One]

Got to be an insider to read the article so I could not read it, but I strongly disagree that the Seahawks had the worse off season. Seems ludicrous to write that. I feel it was the best off season in a decade for the Seahawks.

I honestly feel it was one of our best off seasons in a while as well... This offseason gave me new hope moving forward because I don't believe we were going to win another SB w/ Wilson...

 

[Jikkle]

Well we are going to find out whether the problem with the Seahawks was Russell Wilson or Pete Carroll pretty quickly.

But I find it interesting that you use Mahomes and Burrow as your counter-examples because BOTH of them excel because of their play out of schedule. And when Mahomes line fell apart, he wasn't really able to do shit.

I do agree that the OCs have been given too much blame. I think Bevell was fine. And Schotty as well. But the gameplans will always be constrained by whatever Pete says they need to be constrained by. And for the past 4 years he has shown no indication that he realizes that the defense isn't what it was in 2013-2016 and you can't play safe offense if you defense is getting gashed.

Both Wilson and Carroll were problems but Carroll is the bigger problem. He's in charge of everything from the roster to coaching and both have been issues since their last Super Bowl appearance though I'd be more critical of his roster-building than his coaching.

It was fair to expect a drop-off from the LOB days but Carroll has had plenty of time to rebuild and restock the roster into something legitimately competitive but he hasn't. I mean the last time the Seahawks made it out of the divisional round was their last Super Bowl appearance year and the teams they did beat in that span they were fully expected to beat.

Of course Carroll the coach hasn't helped matters because he's still stuck in 2013 and hasn't evolved or adjusted his mentality to work with the talent he does have to make the best out of them. I will say his teams are well-coached it's just the lack of actual talent and the philosophy that holds them back.

When I brought up Mahomes and Burrow it wasn't to compare their playing styles with Wilson but the fact that they can get their teams into championships even if the talent isn't outstanding. I'm not implying they don't have dynamic playmakers because you still have to have some talent to win but it's not like they are working with top to bottom loaded rosters either. Especially with Burrow who was on a Bengals team that wasn't what you would consider a great roster. In fact a lot of the complaints with offensive line you have with Wilson you have with Burrow as well but he was still able to drag the Bengals to the Super Bowl.

 

[flyerhawk]

When I brought up Mahomes and Burrow it wasn't to compare their playing styles with Wilson but the fact that they can get their teams into championships even if the talent isn't outstanding. I'm not implying they don't have dynamic playmakers because you still have to have some talent to win but it's not like they are working with top to bottom loaded rosters either. Especially with Burrow who was on a Bengals team that wasn't what you would consider a great roster. In fact a lot of the complaints with offensive line you have with Wilson you have with Burrow as well but he was still able to drag the Bengals to the Super Bowl.

But we really don't know how good Burrow really will be as a pro. He had a great run but does he have another in him? We will see in the future.

 

[MrS]

Both Wilson and Carroll were problems but Carroll is the bigger problem. He's in charge of everything from the roster to coaching and both have been issues since their last Super Bowl appearance though I'd be more critical of his roster-building than his coaching.

It was fair to expect a drop-off from the LOB days but Carroll has had plenty of time to rebuild and restock the roster into something legitimately competitive but he hasn't. I mean the last time the Seahawks made it out of the divisional round was their last Super Bowl appearance year and the teams they did beat in that span they were fully expected to beat.

Of course Carroll the coach hasn't helped matters because he's still stuck in 2013 and hasn't evolved or adjusted his mentality to work with the talent he does have to make the best out of them. I will say his teams are well-coached it's just the lack of actual talent and the philosophy that holds them back.

When I brought up Mahomes and Burrow it wasn't to compare their playing styles with Wilson but the fact that they can get their teams into championships even if the talent isn't outstanding. I'm not implying they don't have dynamic playmakers because you still have to have some talent to win but it's not like they are working with top to bottom loaded rosters either. Especially with Burrow who was on a Bengals team that wasn't what you would consider a great roster. In fact a lot of the complaints with offensive line you have with Wilson you have with Burrow as well but he was still able to drag the Bengals to the Super Bowl.

There have been huge problems roster building since the 2013 draft. They wasted too much capital trying for home runs that seriously hurt the team in the long run.
The difference with this offseason is that they took forward looking steps rather than "we must win now because our QB is taking up 25% of our cap so trade away all our first round picks"
This is carroll's last run, its be a contender in 3 years or bust. Its just a shame they didnt trade wilson a few years ago and start the rebuild earlier

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Both Wilson and Carroll were problems but Carroll is the bigger problem. He's in charge of everything from the roster to coaching and both have been issues since their last Super Bowl appearance though I'd be more critical of his roster-building than his coaching.

It was fair to expect a drop-off from the LOB days but Carroll has had plenty of time to rebuild and restock the roster into something legitimately competitive but he hasn't. I mean the last time the Seahawks made it out of the divisional round was their last Super Bowl appearance year and the teams they did beat in that span they were fully expected to beat.

Of course Carroll the coach hasn't helped matters because he's still stuck in 2013 and hasn't evolved or adjusted his mentality to work with the talent he does have to make the best out of them. I will say his teams are well-coached it's just the lack of actual talent and the philosophy that holds them back.

When I brought up Mahomes and Burrow it wasn't to compare their playing styles with Wilson but the fact that they can get their teams into championships even if the talent isn't outstanding. I'm not implying they don't have dynamic playmakers because you still have to have some talent to win but it's not like they are working with top to bottom loaded rosters either. Especially with Burrow who was on a Bengals team that wasn't what you would consider a great roster. In fact a lot of the complaints with offensive line you have with Wilson you have with Burrow as well but he was still able to drag the Bengals to the Super Bowl.

I'll just repeat something I've said before and that is the NFL is set up to make it hard to stay on top.
2009 Steelers won the SB and never reach that height again.
2010 Saints ---ditto
2011 Packers ditto
2012 Giants ditto
2013 Ravens ditto
2016 Broncos ditto
2018 Eagles ditto

Pats have been an exception, Chiefs have been on the same path as the Seahawks. Carroll isn't the problem or a problem period. He's been good given how hard it is to stay on top. RW certainly helped with that up to a point, but over time his limitations started showing as his mobility slowed down. Also all the resources it took to keep RW in Seattle was a factor, then RW unwillingness to adapt his game to the OC (not Pete's) scheme of how to attack a defense also became a point of contention.

This season feels much like how it felt when Pete first arrived in Seattle, roster is getting improved, need to find a franchise QB, the draft is a big deal again, draft capitol is being accumulated, may not have a lot of wins this season but the arrow is pointing up for the future. I like it.

 

[Jikkle]

I'll just repeat something I've said before and that is the NFL is set up to make it hard to stay on top.
2009 Steelers won the SB and never reach that height again.
2010 Saints ---ditto
2011 Packers ditto
2012 Giants ditto
2013 Ravens ditto
2016 Broncos ditto
2018 Eagles ditto

Pats have been an exception, Chiefs have been on the same path as the Seahawks. Carroll isn't the problem or a problem period. He's been good given how hard it is to stay on top. RW certainly helped with that up to a point, but over time his limitations started showing as his mobility slowed down. Also all the resources it took to keep RW in Seattle was a factor, then RW unwillingness to adapt his game to the OC (not Pete's) scheme of how to attack a defense also became a point of contention.

This season feels much like how it felt when Pete first arrived in Seattle, roster is getting improved, need to find a franchise QB, the draft is a big deal again, draft capitol is being accumulated, may not have a lot of wins this season but the arrow is pointing up for the future. I like it.

It's difficult to win the Super Bowl and that's not where my main criticism lies with Pete but the fact that since the Seahawks' last Super Bowl they are 3-5 in the playoffs and haven't at least made it past the divisional round at least once or twice.

And if you look at their playoff wins in that span it's not exactly like they pulled off any major upsets or beat anyone worth anything. They beat the Vikings in 15 because Blair Walsh missed an easy go ahead FG that probably wins the game, a 9-7 Lions team in 16, and a barely standing Eagles team in 19.

If Wilson is a top-tier franchise QB there really isn't an excuse for them to not at least had a little more success in the playoffs at least in my personal opinion.

 

[Podunkparte]

It objectively was a bad offseason because we lost a top 5 QB in the league. However, we've managed to do quite a lot to plant the seed for a quality team in a short amount of time. 1-2 years from now we'll hopefully be baring that fruit, and that would be a very impressive feat, but on its face, having to trade your Super Bowl winning QB will always mean your offseason went poorly.

 

[Cave_Johnson]

Barnwell ranks NFL offseasons from first to worst: How much better are the Broncos?

The Broncos have a franchise quarterback, while the Seahawks ... don't. Let's stack all 32 teams based on their offseason moves.

www.espn.com

So Barnwell ranks the Seahawks offseason as the worst offseason of any team. Hard to argue otherwise.

Uh....I don't agree at all. Seattle was never going to win another Super Bowl with Wilson. The last several years have made that painfully obvious. They for sure would be a solid playoff team, but not a true SB contender. They absolutely didn't get enough for Wilson. But they got a good haul and the draft was solid. Worst offseason in the NFL is a HUGE stretch.

 

[Cave_Johnson]

It doesn't bug me at all. I have a very pragmatic view of it. Father time is undefeated not just with players but with coaches.

Bruce Arians retired. Bellechick is arguably the greatest coach of all time. Andy Reid is nearly 7 years younger than Carroll.

THIS is a good point though. Pete Carroll is also part of the problem. And he is old af.

Also, Belichick IS undeniably the greatest coach of all time. The only people who really disagree are Patriot haters and hardcore Patriot "fans" who'd rather have Tom Brady unload his shit and cum directly in their mouth than praise Billy Boy once and take anything away from their beloved little boy mouth rapist.

 

[Podunkparte]

hardcore Patriot "fans" who'd rather have Tom Brady unload his shit and cum directly in their mouth than praise Billy Boy once and take anything away from their beloved little boy mouth rapist.

You kiss your father on the lips with that mouth?!

 

[flyerhawk]

Uh....I don't agree at all. Seattle was never going to win another Super Bowl with Wilson. The last several years have made that painfully obvious. They for sure would be a solid playoff team, but not a true SB contender. They absolutely didn't get enough for Wilson. But they got a good haul and the draft was solid. Worst offseason in the NFL is a HUGE stretch.

I get that a lot of Hawk fans want to believe this and it certainly could be true.

But Russell Wilson isn't responsible for the draft. He isn't responsible for spending 7 million on a TE who played 2 games for us. He isn't responsible for the team constantly whiffing on free agent lineman. And he's not responsible for having one of the worst defenses in football the past few seasons. The Seahawks have ranked near or at the bottom when it comes to both lines for years now.

Barnwell's main point is that when you go from a top tier QB to Geno Smith/Drew Lock that is definitionally a terrible offseason.

 

[flyerhawk]

THIS is a good point though. Pete Carroll is also part of the problem. And he is old af.

If Paul Allen were still alive, I don't think there is a chance in hell that he picks Pete over Russ. But Jody isn't that invested in the team and is more focused on smart financial decisions. Unfortunately, I think this team is going to languish until she is able to sell the team.

 

[seattlefan75]

It's difficult to win the Super Bowl and that's not where my main criticism lies with Pete but the fact that since the Seahawks' last Super Bowl they are 3-5 in the playoffs and haven't at least made it past the divisional round at least once or twice.

And if you look at their playoff wins in that span it's not exactly like they pulled off any major upsets or beat anyone worth anything. They beat the Vikings in 15 because Blair Walsh missed an easy go ahead FG that probably wins the game, a 9-7 Lions team in 16, and a barely standing Eagles team in 19.

If Wilson is a top-tier franchise QB there really isn't an excuse for them to not at least had a little more success in the playoffs at least in my personal opinion.

I am on the stance of there really shouldnt be as much pressure on Pete Carroll than Russell Wilson. I mean lets be honest the Seahawks arent going to win the division and more than likely aren't going to the playoffs unless Drew Lock is secretly Andrew Luck that will throw 40 TDs but all signs point to us being a top 10 pick next season.

All the pressure is on Russell Wilson to win opening day and take the Broncos to the playoffs and win playoffs games and beat out the Chiefs, Chargers and Raiders all season. At the end of the day Pete didn't ask RW to leave he demanded to leave, he didn't want to sign an extension, he wanted to be a QB that ran the team and got full control like Tom Brady has in Tampa. What happened in the past is almost irrelevant now the marriage is over and the divorce paperwork is filed.

Now maybe to your credit we will now see what Pete can do if this season is a full on crap show and next season is also the same then it will most likely be it for Pete as the coach here.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

I am on the stance of there really shouldnt be as much pressure on Pete Carroll than Russell Wilson.

Yes I agree. Pete is trying for quick turn around, but it takes more then one off season to fill all the holes. This was not the year to fix a QB problem, so I was so happy that the Seahawks focused on fixing positions where the draft and talent allowed. So bookend tackles, couple of pass rushers, a solid RB, and some secondary help that could be developed. That's a solid start to the turn around, but it is understood that the most important position still needs addressing (QB of course) and the division is brutal so expectations for wins in 2022 should be low. Next season 2 firsts and 2 seconds plus the rest of the picks and good cap space means the turn around should start seeing results and the Seahawks can be expected to compete again.
RW will be expected to lift the Broncos immediately given the package they gave up for him, his contract, his future contract expectations ( he will want to be highest paid in the league), his age.
Pete record since coming to Seattle can be compared to his peers and one can see it's been outstanding. The Seahawks were caught in a catch 22 as they always did well ( but not as well as wished for) but their success made it difficult to improve to the next level.
I feel these are exciting times for Seahawks fans as it is clear a solid rebuild has begun and is off to very good start and lots of suspense over how/when/who the next franchise QB will be. It's invigorating and a improvement over the stale feeling we have felt last few years.

 

[flyerhawk]

I feel these are exciting times for Seahawks fans as it is clear a solid rebuild has begun and is off to very good start and lots of suspense over how/when/who the next franchise QB will be. It's invigorating and a improvement over the stale feeling we have felt last few years.

And this is where we simply see things differently.

I agree that these are exciting times right now. We haven't played a game post-Russell Wilson yet. We can all hope that PC/JS have rediscovered their crystal ball and we actually draft some pro bowlers again. And we can all argue that the problem wasn't Pete but Russell Wilson right now because we have no way to prove otherwise.

And hopefully this how it all turns out.

But there is a very real possibility that Russ WASN'T the problem but actually was hiding the real problem with his play. We can't get around the fact that our offensive line has been terrible for years. We can't get around the fact that our pass rush has hovered between terrible and mediocre basically since Cliff Avril retired.

So if Russ goes off to Denver and is 14-3 while the Seahawks struggle for a 6-11 season, what then? Hope that next year we hit it big with draft picks? That is a vicious cycle.

I've moved on from being angry at the team and I've accepted where we are as a team. But I'm still not willing to put on a pair of rose colored glasses and say everything is just fine. The team is in a precarious state right now. And if the Seahawks really fall on their face and the Broncos do really well, there is going to be a LOT of pressure on PC/JS. And if PC retires because he is tired of it all, we are going to be in the worst shape we've been in since the Behring years.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

I've moved on from being angry at the team and I've accepted where we are as a team. But I'm still not willing to put on a pair of rose colored glasses and say everything is just fine.

Glad you have moved on from being angry. It's not that everything is fine now, it's that the Seahawks are back to having the potential to build a Superbowl team once again, that was lacking in the proceeding seasons and while obviously it can go wrong, I'm glad to see it could/should be possible once again.

 

[flyerhawk]

Glad you have moved on from being angry. It's not that everything is fine now, it's that the Seahawks are back to having the potential to build a Superbowl team once again, that was lacking in the proceeding seasons and while obviously it can go wrong, I'm glad to see it could/should be possible once again.

And this is also where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think that Russell Wilson is the reason why we couldn't win a Super Bowl. Quite the opposite really. I think the reason why we couldn't win a Super Bowl is because Pete Carroll kept believing that our team was capable of running his style of football which is low risk offense and stout defense that creates turnovers.

There is talk that Pete lost Russ after the Cowboys playoff loss. And then the rift was past the point of no return with the Bills and Rams games 2 years ago. From what I've read, Russ felt he was blamed for those losses while ignore that A) the defense literally did nothing to stop the Bills and B) the offensive line has NEVER been able to slow down the Rams pass rush one bit.

None of this is intended to absolve Russ. He certainly has made plenty of mistakes. But is the job of the coach to maximize the talents of the players, not the players to fit into the scheme of the coach. Which is why Pete will never be Bellichick.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

And this is also where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think that Russell Wilson is the reason why we couldn't win a Super Bowl.

I thought I was clear in saying the NFL makes it extremely difficult to stay on top. Once a team makes it to the top of the mountain every player wants to be shown THE MONEY. Not only good pay, players wanted to be the highest paid at their position and that included Russell Wilson and to be the highest paid QB in the league is a difficult burden to over come for a team. Certainly makes it hard to maintain the quality of the roster, especially while others on the roster expected, demanded actually, to be rewarded richly also, That combined with picking at the tail end of draft rounds is a rather large obstacle to over come and that is why other teams have fallen off the path of success so often with the exception of one or two.
Pete has done a fantastic job of winning under the circumstances. While some want to give RW the credit for winning and Pete the blame for not winning enough, it is either unrealistic expectations or a bias against Pete philosophy combined with a age prejudice. Those folks are easy to spot because they'll repeatedly mention Petes age, describe his offense ( and sometimes his defense) as antiquated. Now this is where I strongly disagree with them. No one is reinventing the wheel in the NFL, Pete offense will work, has worked and will work in the future. He's still sharp and hasn't forgotten how to win. Yes I'm a believer in Pete and believe we'll rue the day we wished him gone, once he does retire.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

Yes I think he has been an effective coach the past few years, but I felt RW was resisting changing his game ( which have some important flaws). Reading the Ringer article they hit on what I mean:

Wilson is the antithesis of the “system quarterback.” He is his own system, to the point that it didn’t matter who Carroll brought in as a play-caller. Eventually everything morphed into the Russell Wilson Offense.

I 100% agree with that take.


That’s certainly how things developed in 2021 after the Seahawks hired Shane Waldron away from the Rams to install a version of Sean McVay’s offense. The thinking was that the schematic guardrails that had helped so many average quarterbacks play like stars—even Jared Goff—could elevate Wilson, while Wilson in turn could elevate the system.

But as the season progressed, the product looked more and more like the offense the Seahawks had been running for the past decade. All the hallmarks of a McVay offense—the condensed formations, the passing concepts attacking the middle of the field, the runs from under center—were slowly phased out to the point that, if you look back at some key metrics, you’d never guess that the Rams and Seahawks shared a similar philosophy last season.

This^^^is right on the money.

The McVay offense doesn’t work if defenses aren’t forced to pack the intermediate areas of the field. No NFL passing game does, really. Deeper passes offer a higher reward but hit less often. Shorter passes have a higher rate of success but don’t offer as much bang for your buck. It’s that midrange area where you find the perfect middle ground.
But that area is mostly closed off when Wilson is at quarterback. That hasn’t prevented him from playing at a high level throughout his career. But what happens when age starts to take a toll on his physical ability? When those moon balls he’s known for start missing the mark? When outrunning pass rushers become a bit more difficult on scramble plays, or those throws on the move don’t turn into completions as frequently?

Dang it's like someone read my mine or maybe my posts here and then wrote the article. The changes made this season are the changes that needed to be made and so far it has gone beautifully. Finding the next franchise QB will be a challenge but it can be done and the Seahawks with good draft capitol in 2023 are in a good spot to make it happen.

You and I have been pretty much on the same page with everything you posted from Ringer.