UPCOMING FREE AGENTS THIS YEAR AND NEXT

[Kinzu]

The Redskins are counting on Norman to play well against Bryant and Beckham. I agree that the Redskins are a better team than the Niners. Their QB situation alone is much better than the Niners. I'm glad the Niners did not sign Norman because they are a long ways from sniffing the playoffs. They are in a rebuilding mode even if York and Baalke deny it.

How many Super Bowls has Cousins played in? How many Playoff games has he won? Hard to say Washington should feel good about what they're paying him right now.

 

[deep9er]

Well if McCloughan didn't think the guy could play he wouldn't have signed him. Has Dontae Johnson made a Pro Bowl, started in a Super Bowl or even been mentioned as a top CB in the NFL? You have your answer.

when you have a salary cap, you're forced to manage the entire team. you have to manage the current roster as well as near future rosters. it is human nature to want the best players, we ALL do. but managing includes timing and you can't add any FA, any time you want. Even if you have cap space, you still have to manage with the near future in mind, not only THIS season.

Adding Norman now at $!5M/year, is building via free agency. You will not see anyone saying that is the way to go.

Quality of your team isn't the main reason when you're deciding on a FA, or not. But it is a necessary consideration. later on when you do have a contending team, you'll need a LOT of cap just to retain your own. Then you have add pricey FA's to fill the specific roles you lack.

 

[poewelch84]

when you have a salary cap, you're forced to manage the entire team. you have to manage the current roster as well as near future rosters. it is human nature to want the best players, we ALL do. but managing includes timing and you can't add any FA, any time you want. Even if you have cap space, you still have to manage with the near future in mind, not only THIS season.

Adding Norman now at $!5M/year, is building via free agency. You will not see anyone saying that is the way to go.

Quality of your team isn't the main reason when you're deciding on a FA, or not. But it is a necessary consideration. later on when you do have a contending team, you'll need a LOT of cap just to retain your own. Then you have add pricey FA's to fill the specific roles you lack.

We've hashed this out a lot and we don't see eye to eye on this. You say adding one player at a high price is building through FA I disagree. Also with your logic they wouldn't have signed Justin Smith like they did because the team was even worse then than they are now.

 

[deep9er]

We've hashed this out a lot and we don't see eye to eye on this. You say adding one player at a high price is building through FA I disagree. Also with your logic they wouldn't have signed Justin Smith like they did because the team was even worse then than they are now.

yeah ok, we'll continue to disagree. no problem.

you cite the best FA example where it worked, but there are examples where it didn't. there are more examples where we were left with dead money, much more.

 

[poewelch84]

yeah ok, we'll continue to disagree. no problem.

you cite the best FA example where it worked, but there are examples where it didn't. there are more examples where we were left with dead money, much more.

I feel like the team did a better job signing FA's under McCloughan than they have under Baalke. Even guys like Nate Clements and Donte Whitner were solid signings and I believe McCloughan made those as well, not to mention bringing in Brooks and drafting guys like Willis, Joe Staley and Vernon Davis, hell even Alex Smith would be an upgrade at QB right now and I never thought I would say that. The root of the issue isn't building through the draft or through FA the root of the problem is Baalke isn't a good GM so they haven't been able to keep getting much talent through the draft or supplement their roster with quality FA signings.

 

[AU_Fever]

How many Super Bowls has Cousins played in? How many Playoff games has he won? Hard to say Washington should feel good about what they're paying him right now.

He did have a good year and the Redskins are a better team than the Niners. Are you saying that Kap at this point in his career is a better option than Cousins? Carr has never won a playoff game and has never played in a Super Bowl, yet I would take him in a heartbeat over Kap. Redskins are playing in a weaker division where maybe 9 or 10 wins will win it. Redskins did pay a lot of money, but they feel as though Norman can make a difference. I'm glad the Niners didn't sign Norman because they are in a rebuilding mode.

 

[Pattersonca65]

I feel like the team did a better job signing FA's under McCloughan than they have under Baalke. Even guys like Nate Clements and Donte Whitner were solid signings and I believe McCloughan made those as well, not to mention bringing in Brooks and drafting guys like Willis, Joe Staley and Vernon Davis, hell even Alex Smith would be an upgrade at QB right now and I never thought I would say that. The root of the issue isn't building through the draft or through FA the root of the problem is Baalke isn't a good GM so they haven't been able to keep getting much talent through the draft or supplement their roster with quality FA signings.

Clements was an awful signing. He never amounted to anything. But generally I would agree about Baalke.

 

[Pattersonca65]

He did have a good year and the Redskins are a better team than the Niners. Are you saying that Kap at this point in his career is a better option than Cousins? Carr has never won a playoff game and has never played in a Super Bowl, yet I would take him in a heartbeat over Kap. Redskins are playing in a weaker division where maybe 9 or 10 wins will win it. Redskins did pay a lot of money, but they feel as though Norman can make a difference. I'm glad the Niners didn't sign Norman because they are in a rebuilding mode.

I am a skeptic with the Norman signing. Not McCloughan but Snyder has a history of big free agent signings that don't pan out and then the cap issues hit and it is rinse and repeat. Will see.

 

[AU_Fever]

I am a skeptic with the Norman signing. Not McCloughan but Snyder has a history of big free agent signings that don't pan out and then the cap issues hit and it is rinse and repeat. Will see.

Agree. They paid a boatload of money for Norman. I remember the Albert Haynesworth signing. I'm just glad we didn't sign him.

 

[deep9er]

its no secret the majority of pricey FA's, don't provide value. Clements, Haynesworth, etc. etc., they all left a big dent on their teams cap. We ALL know it but soon as a NAME comes up, a few forget that.

Not against signing any pricey FA forever and ever, but its about when you start signing them.

 

[Pattersonca65]

I borrowed the following from Pozz. It is analysis of Norman and the trouble with throwing big money at him and why teams often blow it in FA.

Norman primarily played zone coverage in tight margins last season. In the Carolina Panthers' scheme, he primarily played Cover-2, Cover-3, and Quarters. The strength of the Panthers defense is their front seven. The unit is specifically designed that way by general manager Dave Gettleman. Since taking over in 2013, Gettleman has drafted only one cornerback: 2014 fifth-rounder Bene Benwikere. Gettleman instead focused his picks on pieces for his front seven while signing low-cost free agents to build his secondary.

Gettleman understood that he could rely on the strength of his front seven to alleviate the pressure on his back four. He wouldn't blitz, so he could keep seven defenders in coverage as often as possible. Instead of fighting at the top of the draft for talented defensive backs who could play in space -- athletes with precise feet, consistent discipline and impressive ball skills -- Gettleman focused on getting players who could play the ball in the air while fitting the defense's zone-heavy scheme. Individual mistakes would be less of an issue in this defense, because everyone would be playing with help nearby and they wouldn't be exposed unless specific route combinations had been called.

This is the context surrounding the rise of Norman.

Norman was celebrated as one of the best cornerbacks in the NFL as the Panthers ascended to the top of the NFC. The talented cornerback had struggled with his consistency throughout his career, even being benched by the current coaching staff for his poor play in the past. He timed his rise to prominence perfectly, as 2015 was a contract year for him. Nobody expected Norman to hit the free agent market, and he didn't initially because the Panthers put the franchise tag on him. That leads us up to this week. Gettleman made the astonishing decision to withdraw Norman's tender so he could hit the free agent market. While he clearly valued the individual talent, Gettleman's philosophy shone through in this move. He wasn't going to overpay a player who played an ancillary role in his ideal defense.

While his talent will obviously attract a lot of teams, those teams should be cautious in throwing money Norman's way. Firstly, he's not young. Norman will turn 29 this year despite only being in the league for four years. Secondly, pursuing teams need to separate Norman's individual play from the support he received in Carolina. Just last year we saw the Philadelphia Eagles completely misevaluate a player in a similar situation. The Eagles signed Byron Maxwell from a zone-heavy team that didn't blitz much and had exceptional talent in the front seven. When he was asked to play more man coverage in more space, Maxwell's ball skills were no longer enough to carry him. he was exposed so much so that the Eagles essentially gave him away 12 months later.

Comparing Norman to Maxwell now sounds ludicrous, but comparing the two last year wouldn't have been. Maxwell would likely have been the more popular name.

To separate Norman from his scheme, extensive analysis is required. I used the Pre-Snap Reads Analysis Method to go through all 19 games that he played last year. The method is explained in greater detail here, but it essentially looks at every single play a cornerback plays and tracks whether he successfully carried out his assignment or not. It only includes plays where the cornerback and receiver were in fair one-on-one situations. Despite playing 19 games last year, Norman only had 253 qualifying plays. Darrelle Revis had 375 when he played 19 games in 2014. Revis and Richard Sherman have consistently been the best performers in these analyses over the years. Their success rates have hovered around 81 percent for the most part. Any rate over 80 percent is very impressive, while quality starters primarily stay above 75 percent.

Norman finished with a 69.96 percent success rate in 2015. As a one-on-one defender, Norman is below average. He shouldn't be asked to play man coverage in space on a regular basis. When he does play man coverage, he is typically at his best bailing away from the line of scrimmage at the snap. This is because he can't jam receivers in press at the line of scrimmage.

 

[deep9er]

I borrowed the following from Pozz. It is analysis of Norman and the trouble with throwing big money at him and why teams often blow it in FA.

Norman primarily played zone coverage in tight margins last season. In the Carolina Panthers' scheme, he primarily played Cover-2, Cover-3, and Quarters. The strength of the Panthers defense is their front seven. The unit is specifically designed that way by general manager Dave Gettleman. Since taking over in 2013, Gettleman has drafted only one cornerback: 2014 fifth-rounder Bene Benwikere. Gettleman instead focused his picks on pieces for his front seven while signing low-cost free agents to build his secondary.

Gettleman understood that he could rely on the strength of his front seven to alleviate the pressure on his back four. He wouldn't blitz, so he could keep seven defenders in coverage as often as possible. Instead of fighting at the top of the draft for talented defensive backs who could play in space -- athletes with precise feet, consistent discipline and impressive ball skills -- Gettleman focused on getting players who could play the ball in the air while fitting the defense's zone-heavy scheme. Individual mistakes would be less of an issue in this defense, because everyone would be playing with help nearby and they wouldn't be exposed unless specific route combinations had been called.

This is the context surrounding the rise of Norman.

Norman was celebrated as one of the best cornerbacks in the NFL as the Panthers ascended to the top of the NFC. The talented cornerback had struggled with his consistency throughout his career, even being benched by the current coaching staff for his poor play in the past. He timed his rise to prominence perfectly, as 2015 was a contract year for him. Nobody expected Norman to hit the free agent market, and he didn't initially because the Panthers put the franchise tag on him. That leads us up to this week. Gettleman made the astonishing decision to withdraw Norman's tender so he could hit the free agent market. While he clearly valued the individual talent, Gettleman's philosophy shone through in this move. He wasn't going to overpay a player who played an ancillary role in his ideal defense.

While his talent will obviously attract a lot of teams, those teams should be cautious in throwing money Norman's way. Firstly, he's not young. Norman will turn 29 this year despite only being in the league for four years. Secondly, pursuing teams need to separate Norman's individual play from the support he received in Carolina. Just last year we saw the Philadelphia Eagles completely misevaluate a player in a similar situation. The Eagles signed Byron Maxwell from a zone-heavy team that didn't blitz much and had exceptional talent in the front seven. When he was asked to play more man coverage in more space, Maxwell's ball skills were no longer enough to carry him. he was exposed so much so that the Eagles essentially gave him away 12 months later.

Comparing Norman to Maxwell now sounds ludicrous, but comparing the two last year wouldn't have been. Maxwell would likely have been the more popular name.

To separate Norman from his scheme, extensive analysis is required. I used the Pre-Snap Reads Analysis Method to go through all 19 games that he played last year. The method is explained in greater detail here, but it essentially looks at every single play a cornerback plays and tracks whether he successfully carried out his assignment or not. It only includes plays where the cornerback and receiver were in fair one-on-one situations. Despite playing 19 games last year, Norman only had 253 qualifying plays. Darrelle Revis had 375 when he played 19 games in 2014. Revis and Richard Sherman have consistently been the best performers in these analyses over the years. Their success rates have hovered around 81 percent for the most part. Any rate over 80 percent is very impressive, while quality starters primarily stay above 75 percent.

Norman finished with a 69.96 percent success rate in 2015. As a one-on-one defender, Norman is below average. He shouldn't be asked to play man coverage in space on a regular basis. When he does play man coverage, he is typically at his best bailing away from the line of scrimmage at the snap. This is because he can't jam receivers in press at the line of scrimmage.

Ok, at $15M/year and $51M guarantee, easy decision not to chase him. A few fan(s) are just getting caught up in the hype, pretty standard every year.

Is Norman a good player, yes. Is he worth $15M/year....nope.

didn't we sign Clements when he was 28 years old? He was fine to begin with but not surprisingly, started dropping off with age. thats just the way it is with age, only Jerrry Rice defied it.

 

[Pattersonca65]

Ok, at $15M/year and $51M guarantee, easy decision not to chase him. A few fan(s) are just getting caught up in the hype, pretty standard every year.

Is Norman a good player, yes. Is he worth $15M/year....nope.

didn't we sign Clements when he was 28 years old? He was fine to begin with but not surprisingly, started dropping off with age. thats just the way it is with age, only Jerrry Rice defied it.

Just going of memory, I don't think Clements was ever any good for us. Never justified his contract and I wouldn't be surprised if you looked up the top 10 worst 49er contracts ever that he would be in the top 5.

 

[Pattersonca65]

Ok, at $15M/year and $51M guarantee, easy decision not to chase him. A few fan(s) are just getting caught up in the hype, pretty standard every year.

Is Norman a good player, yes. Is he worth $15M/year....nope.

didn't we sign Clements when he was 28 years old? He was fine to begin with but not surprisingly, started dropping off with age. thats just the way it is with age, only Jerrry Rice defied it.

Here ya go Deep, they ranked his contract worse here of all time, lol

Worst Contracts in 49ers History
history/page/8

 

[poewelch84]

I don't remember Clements being terrible until the end of his contract. I don't think he ever lived up to the money he was making but the team was terrible then and he was better than anything they had. Signing Free Agents does work you just have to be smart about it. Baalke really isn't regardless of signing Norman or not he doesn't even sign guys that can make an impact.

 

[AU_Fever]

Right now the Torrey Smith signing isn't looking very good, but let's see what he can do with a better OL, better coaching and hopefully better play from Gabbert.

 

[Pattersonca65]

I don't remember Clements being terrible until the end of his contract. I don't think he ever lived up to the money he was making but the team was terrible then and he was better than anything they had. Signing Free Agents does work you just have to be smart about it. Baalke really isn't regardless of signing Norman or not he doesn't even sign guys that can make an impact.

I think he was pretty bad. When you make that player the highest paid defensive player in the league and he fails to play well, it has serious reprecussions for your team.

 

[Pattersonca65]

Right now the Torrey Smith signing isn't looking very good, but let's see what he can do with a better OL, better coaching and hopefully better play from Gabbert.

He is a one dimensional player. Straight line speed guy. Could have really used him in 2012 and 2013. I don't think its him as much as the QB and state of the offense as a whole that just played awful as a unit.

 

[poewelch84]

I think he was pretty bad. When you make that player the highest paid defensive player in the league and he fails to play well, it has serious reprecussions for your team.

He certainly never lived up to the money but I do feel like early in the first couple seasons he was an ok player and after he got hurt with the 9ers he was basically done. Certainly not the best signing but I do think McCloughan hit more than he missed and that was a contract he inherited as GM he was part of the front office but not the GM.

 

[poewelch84]

He is a one dimensional player. Straight line speed guy. Could have really used him in 2012 and 2013. I don't think its him as much as the QB and state of the offense as a whole that just played awful as a unit.

The unit was terrible as a whole so it's hard to know if he'll be a good player for the offense.