Top 10 Poll: #2 Player Ever

[calsnowskier]

In the first sven years of his career, Tout was on a trajectory that would have given him a career better than Mays. As I said previously and you conveniently chose to ignore, because t would have diluted your arguement, injuries ruined him.

Injuries are part of the game. Prime reason Oscar Tavares will never be mentioned in any of these discussions.

 

[calsnowskier]

Well that’s just you trying to be argumentative when you know what the point being made is.

If you want to live in a world where people hide behind their opinions and say they can’t be wrong because it is their opinion. Then so be it. But there are opinions that are so outlandish that there is proof against it.

I agree that Griffey should not be mentioned at this point of the list. But just because I feel that way, doesn’t mean someone else doesn’t. That is what makes these types of discussions so great. I would prefer that the Griffey voter would defend their vote, but oh well…

 

[calsnowskier]

Oh so now 'potential' and 'trajectory' counts? Do we get to remove the crappy years Mays had with the Mets to bring his OPS+ up?

Precisely why I never look at career rate stats. Worthless metric at that scale.

 

[msgkings322]

Sure. But defense has been statistically flawed forever. Makes it an impossible to factor in.

Sure. Players like Ted Williams, manny Ramirez, Miguel Cabrera etc should get dinged for their terrible defense. But how significantly different are they from a player who was elite at defense.

I do think WAR over exaggerates defense.

We all get to decide how we evaluate and vote, so it doesn't matter how 'statistically flawed' defense is. Like you say, we know Williams was a bad defender and Mays was elite. Mays a better baserunner too and they are comparable as hitters (slight edge to Williams) so that's why most rate Mays > Williams.

 

[calsnowskier]

I don't disagree, probably top 10 overall, but I rank Mays higher even disregarding the PEDs.

I do admit the PEDs are why I don't rank Bonds over Mays though.

I am not sure I would put ARod in top 10. Getting caught CHEATING twice is a legit argument to question his overall greatness. But I agree he belongs in the conversation, either way, beginning in the lower part of the top 10.

 

[msgkings322]

I am not sure I would put ARod in top 10. Getting caught CHEATING twice is a legit argument to question his overall greatness. But I agree he belongs in the conversation, either way, beginning in the lower part of the top 10.

Yeah 8-10ish

 

[Clayton]

Since I guess the most unbiased people here are Giants fan...ahem...whats the argument for Bonds over Mays? Eyeball test?

 

[Clayton]

We all get to decide how we evaluate and vote, so it doesn't matter how 'statistically flawed' defense is. Like you say, we know Williams was a bad defender and Mays was elite. Mays a better baserunner too and they are comparable as hitters (slight edge to Williams) so that's why most rate Mays > Williams.

I'd say Williams has more than a slight edge over Mays in terms of hitting.

Mays does check every box more than any other player, though.

 

[steveringo]

OPS+
Ruth 206
Williams 191
Bonds 182
Gehrig 179
Hornsby 175
Foxx 163
Musial 159
Mays 155

I'd have Big Train, and maybe Pedro & Rocket ahead of some of those guys...

 

[calsnowskier]

Since I guess the most unbiased people here are Giants fan...ahem...whats the argument for Bonds over Mays? Eyeball test?

Greatest hitter ever (possibly except Ruth). And we all watched him play, while very few saw Mays or Williams play (and no one saw Ruth).

I can only rate Mays based on numbers and lore, but I rate him #1 based on that. He excelled at EVERY aspect of the game. Bonds has “the stink” on him, and his defense (mid/late career) and clubhouse presence really hurt his case.

 

[calsnowskier]

I'd have Big Train, and maybe Pedro & Rocket ahead of some of those guys...

Defend this!

What were their OPS+’s?

 

[msgkings322]

I'd say Williams has more than a slight edge over Mays in terms of hitting.

Mays does check every box more than any other player, though.

Except pitching. Ohtani checks all the boxes too (hitting, baserunning, pitching...but we don't know if he can field (I bet he'd be a great outfielder though)

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I'd say Williams has more than a slight edge over Mays in terms of hitting.

Mays does check every box more than any other player, though.

Even the extra boxes. The military service and the fact he is a black man and played in the beginning of the blacks in baseball. With all the racism whether on players or more generally opposing fanbases.

 

[calsnowskier]

And I love the hate getting dumped on “Giants fans” in this thread. Me, MSG and LHG are the only “Giants fans” even participating. Hardly a needle moving delegation.

 

[msgkings322]

Even the extra boxes. The military service and the fact he is a black man and played in the beginning of the blacks in baseball. With all the racism whether on players or more generally opposing fanbases.

Williams had even more military service, to be fair. And it doesn't count for this debate but he was a legit war hero, Mays didn't actually see any combat.

 

[steveringo]

Since I guess the most unbiased people here are Giants fan...ahem...whats the argument for Bonds over Mays? Eyeball test?

Barry Bonds Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Barry Bonds. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

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Willie Mays Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Willie Mays. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

 

[steveringo]

Defend this!

What were their OPS+’s?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Williams had even more military service, to be fair. And it doesn't count for this debate but he was a legit war hero, Mays didn't actually see any combat.

I wasn’t comparing the 2. Just saying. He fills those boxes.

 

[calsnowskier]

Except pitching. Ohtani checks all the boxes too (hitting, baserunning, pitching...but we don't know if he can field (I bet he'd be a great outfielder though)

“He could field”…

But he doesn’t!

You can only judge what you see on the field. M’s fans claim Edgar was a good fielding 3B/1B. But he WASNT. He didn’t even own a glove. He gets ZERO credit for any skills he did not demonstrate on the field.

 

[msgkings322]

I wasn’t comparing the 2. Just saying. He fills those boxes.

Well I am! This whole thread is about comparing them. Williams was a better hitter so some rank him above Mays on that.