POLL Top 10 poll: #26 player ever

[msgkings322]

My dad asked if Whitey Ford can be considered with the other pitchers yet

 

[Cedrique]

My dad asked if Whitey Ford can be considered with the other pitchers yet

I don't have him yet but he has some things going for him, like I think he has the highest winning percentage of players with that many decisions.

 

[msgkings322]

I don't have him yet but he has some things going for him, like I think he has the highest winning percentage of players with that many decisions.

Also played in 13 World Series

 

[msgkings322]

I don’t see why someone would vote Koufax over Kershaw but that’s what makes it fun

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don’t see why someone would vote Koufax over Kershaw but that’s what makes it fun

I can. Kershaw is a modern day pitching darling. But he only had 5 seasons of over 200 innings.

 

[msgkings322]

I can. Kershaw is a modern day pitching darling. But he only had 5 seasons of over 200 innings.

Yeah that’s true of most modern pitchers. The game is different. Old timers pitched more, Kershaw pitched better

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yeah that’s true of most modern pitchers. The game is different. Old timers pitched more, Kershaw pitched better

I am not saying which one is better. Just saying that he was pitching before the Only 5 innings guys. Most of the reason he couldn’t go over 200 is because of health. And it should definitely be seen as a negative for him.

Also the lack of innings is a big reason his ratios are higher than other all time greats.

I’d still take Koufax 5 seasons over Kershaw’s five. Pretty easily too. But Koufax outside of his 5 is nowhere near a HOFer.

 

[LHG]

My dad asked if Whitey Ford can be considered with the other pitchers yet

I guess if Koufax gets serious consideration we should start looking at Ford as well.

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129	Total Score
Clayton Kershaw	18​	16​	0​	24​	5​	4​	6​	4​	0​	77​
Christy Matthewson	18​	0​	0​	0​	15​	12​	0​	6​	1​	52​
Grover Alexander	9​	0​	0​	6​	20​	4​	0​	2​	8​	49​
Justin Verlander	9​	0​	0​	12​	10​	0​	3​	6​	4​	44​
Tom Seaver	0​	8​	0​	6​	5​	0​	12​	4​	4​	39​
Kid Nichols	0​	0​	0​	12​	10​	4​	3​	8​	2​	39​
Bob Gibson	9​	0​	0​	0​	5​	4​	3​	8​	3​	32​
Whitey Ford	0​	0​	0​	12​	0​	8​	6​	2​	3​	31​
Sandy Koufax	0​	8​	7​	0​	5​	4​	3​	2​	1​	30​
Warren Spahn	0​	0​	7​	6​	0​	0​	0​	2​	8​	23​

 

[msgkings322]

I am not saying which one is better. Just saying that he was pitching before the Only 5 innings guys. Most of the reason he couldn’t go over 200 is because of health. And it should definitely be seen as a negative for him.

Also the lack of innings is a big reason his ratios are higher than other all time greats.

I’d still take Koufax 5 seasons over Kershaw’s five. Pretty easily too. But Koufax outside of his 5 is nowhere near a HOFer.

Kershaw pitched far more than Koufax and has a LIFETIME 1.01 WHIP and 156 ERA+ and 79.4 WAR. Koufax doesn’t come near that. Easy call for me.

 

[calsnowskier]

Which makes it interesting IMO, it could reasonably go any number of ways and I’m curious to see which

But now it is just a weird voting mechanic excercize rather than productive baseball debate.

 

[msgkings322]

But now it is just a weird voting mechanic excercize rather than productive baseball debate.

I couldn't disagree more but it's your baby, up to you. The debates are far more interesting now IMO because there's not so many obvious ones now.

I feel like the season starting is a good time to stop, around 30. Hope you keep it going but totally understand if you don't, really appreciate the effort.

I suppose someone else could take over if you really want to stop. Not me though LOL

 

[LHG]

By the way, based on my scoring methodology on ERA+ seasons, the following all scored even or higher than Koufax:

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129	Total Score
Clayton Kershaw	18​	16​	0​	24​	5​	4​	6​	4​	0​	77​
Christy Matthewson	18​	0​	0​	0​	15​	12​	0​	6​	1​	52​
Grover Alexander	9​	0​	0​	6​	20​	4​	0​	2​	8​	49​
Justin Verlander	9​	0​	0​	12​	10​	0​	3​	6​	4​	44​
Mordecai Brown	9​	8​	0​	6​	5​	4​	3​	4​	2​	41​
Roy Halladay	0​	0​	7​	0​	10​	12​	9​	0​	2​	40​
Tom Seaver	0​	8​	0​	6​	5​	0​	12​	4​	4​	39​
Kid Nichols	0​	0​	0​	12​	10​	4​	3​	8​	2​	39​
Kevin Brown	9​	0​	0​	0​	15​	8​	3​	2​	0​	37​
Max Scherzer	0​	0​	0​	6​	15​	4​	9​	0​	2​	36​
Hal Newhouser	0​	16​	0​	0​	5​	4​	6​	2​	1​	34​
Zack Greinke	18​	0​	0​	0​	0​	4​	3​	4​	4​	33​
Johan Santana	0​	0​	7​	0​	10​	8​	3​	4​	1​	33​
Bob Gibson	9​	0​	0​	0​	5​	4​	3​	8​	3​	32​
Carl Hubbell	0​	8​	0​	0​	10​	0​	6​	4​	4​	32​
Chris Sale	9​	0​	0​	12​	0​	4​	3​	2​	1​	31​
Whitey Ford	0​	0​	0​	12​	0​	8​	6​	2​	3​	31​
Mike Mussina	0​	0​	0​	0​	6​	5​	6​	12​	2​	31​
Sandy Koufax	0​	8​	7​	0​	5​	4​	3​	2​	1​	30​
Ed Walsh	0​	0​	7​	0​	10​	4​	6​	2​	1​	30​
Curt Schilling	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​	12​	9​	6​	3​	30​

 

[msgkings322]

George Brett might deserve some more love now too

 

[calsnowskier]

I don't have him yet but he has some things going for him, like I think he has the highest winning percentage of players with that many decisions.

Cy Young has the best winning percentage of anyone with that many decisions…

 

[LHG]

Update on the scoring. I just realized that I was counting Koufax's rookie season, when he only threw 41.2 IP. I've updated his scoring to 28.

 

[calsnowskier]

George Brett might deserve some more love now too

The problem with him, is who is better between him, Robinson, Boggs and Beltre?

However, Beltre may have officially knocked Robinson out of that conversation since his D was at least very comparable to Robinson’s, but now we have Chapman and Arenado who have both entered that defensive discussion as well (not to mention Rolen).

 

[LHG]

But, for the sake of discussion, let's narrow the scoring cutoff to end at the lowest of Koufax's last 5 seasons. His ERA+ in 1962, the first year of his final 5 seasons, was 143. That gives us the following (with Kershaw's 2020 season removed from the scoring as well):

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	Total Score
Clayton Kershaw	9​	16​	0​	24​	5​	4​	6​	64​
Christy Matthewson	18​	0​	0​	0​	15​	12​	0​	45​
Grover Alexander	9​	0​	0​	6​	20​	4​	0​	39​
Roy Halladay	0​	0​	7​	0​	10​	12​	9​	38​
Mordecai Brown	9​	8​	0​	6​	5​	4​	3​	35​
Kevin Brown	9​	0​	0​	0​	15​	8​	3​	35​
Justin Verlander	9​	0​	0​	12​	10​	0​	3​	34​
Max Scherzer	0​	0​	0​	6​	15​	4​	9​	34​
Tom Seaver	0​	8​	0​	6​	5​	0​	12​	31​
Hal Newhouser	0​	16​	0​	0​	5​	4​	6​	31​
Kid Nichols	0​	0​	0​	12​	10​	4​	3​	29​
Johan Santana	0​	0​	7​	0​	10​	8​	3​	28​
Chris Sale	9​	0​	0​	12​	0​	4​	3​	28​
Sandy Koufax	0​	8​	7​	0​	5​	4​	3​	27​
Ed Walsh	0​	0​	7​	0​	10​	4​	6​	27​

 

[LHG]

The problem with him, is who is better between him, Robinson, Boggs and Beltre?

However, Beltre may have officially knocked Robinson out of that conversation since his D was at least very comparable to Robinson’s, but now we have Chapman and Arenado who have both entered that defensive discussion as well (not to mention Rolen).

Is defense not considered in WAR?
Eddie Mathews - 95.9 (53.8)
Adrian Beltre - 93.5 (48.7)
Wade Boggs - 91.4 (56.4)
George Brett - 88.6 (53.3)
Chipper Jones - 85.3 (46.8)
Brooks Robinson - 78.5 (45.8)
Ron Santos - 70.5 (53.8)
Scott Rolen - 70.1 (43.6)

 

[calsnowskier]

Is defense not considered in WAR?
Eddie Mathews - 95.9 (53.8)
Adrian Beltre - 93.5 (48.7)
Wade Boggs - 91.4 (56.4)
George Brett - 88.6 (53.3)
Chipper Jones - 85.3 (46.8)
Brooks Robinson - 78.5 (45.8)
Ron Santos - 70.5 (53.8)
Scott Rolen - 70.1 (43.6)

It is. But I don’t really trust defensive metrics. I base putting Robinson at the top of the defensive pile purely based on legend. I never saw him play, but growing up, he had the reputation as arguably the greatest overall defensive player ever.

I saw Beltre, Rolen, Arenado and Chapman play (I saw a LOT of Arenado and Chappy), and they were all amazing. I ignorantly placed Arenado at the top of the all time defensive 3B list, but after watching Chappy play every day for a year, I am conflicted on that stance.

 

[msgkings322]

The problem with him, is who is better between him, Robinson, Boggs and Beltre?

However, Beltre may have officially knocked Robinson out of that conversation since his D was at least very comparable to Robinson’s, but now we have Chapman and Arenado who have both entered that defensive discussion as well (not to mention Rolen).

Brett I put above Boggs for sure. Have to check the others