POLL Top 10 poll: #29 player ever

[MilkSpiller22]

I thought you said you were the “OG Ohtani guy”, or whatever? Weren’t you voting for him in the 10-15 range? Now ranking him that high is a sign of too many drugs being consumed?

Rickey Henderson was the first ranking on here that really bugged me. He played forever, of course, but he only had two top-5 MVP finishes in his entire career(winning 1). That ceiling felt nowhere near a top-20 guy to me. Ohtani slots higher in my view.

i agree henderson was too high... but the reason we voted him so high was not really even about him... it was about who he was facing in the head 2head...

players were jumping Clemens.... its like how Griffey was a finalist in one, then not a finalist in the next couple, before he was voted in...

he was voted so high more because of the system we are using(no, i am not criticizing the system)...

sure, he had a following because of his unicorn level of play which was also very flashy...

griffey so high was the same as Henderson...

 

[calsnowskier]

i agree henderson was too high... but the reason we voted him so high was not really even about him... it was about who he was facing in the head 2head...

players were jumping Clemens.... its like how Griffey was a finalist in one, then not a finalist in the next couple, before he was voted in...

he was voted so high more because of the system we are using(no, i am not criticizing the system)...

sure, he had a following because of his unicorn level of play which was also very flashy...

griffey so high was the same as Henderson...

I agree that Henderson was too high. I “stumped” him, but I never voted for him myself. And I don’t think I ever even nominated him. But I don’t think his spot at 14 was a great travesty in this project. Not nearly as bad as Clemens’ drop or Griffey’s or Koufax’s placements. Maybe even Aaron beating out Cobb at 5.

I plan on posting a discussion thread for review after we finish, so let’s table these discussions for now…

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I agree that Henderson was too high. I “stumped” him, but I never voted for him myself. And I don’t think I ever even nominated him. But I don’t think his spot at 14 was a great travesty in this project. Not nearly as bad as Clemens’ drop or Griffey’s or Koufax’s placements. Maybe even Aaron beating out Cobb at 5.

I plan on posting a discussion thread for review after we finish, so let’s table these discussions for now…

no, not a travesty...

griffey's placement hit me the worst... i dont mind koufax(as proof that i was stumping him)...

and aaron at 5 over cobb i at least understand... dont agree with, but i understand it,...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

also, not sure about any of you... but as we have been going i have been fine tuning my criteria...

so i wonder if i would vote the same as i did in earlier rounds...

 

[calsnowskier]

also, not sure about any of you... but as we have been going i have been fine tuning my criteria...

so i wonder if i would vote the same as i did in earlier rounds...

THAT is the ultimate point of this project. Make your argument. Listen to other’s arguments. Fine tune your stances, even if slowly over the life of the project.

I had a blast with this. I learned a LOT. My opinions going in are different from where they are now (I have more respect for Aaron’s accomplishments, for example).

 

[msgkings322]

The "Old Hoss Radbourn" group that you feel like attacking didn't exactly vote for Koufax. The ones you are calling absurd that it was absurd that Koufax got ranked where he was. Speaking for myself, I think intangibles and what ifs for career length are crazy ways to measure the greatness of a player (or, very least, why over ranked).

And as for Ohtani not being special or not looking like a superstar, no one is arguing that. It’s the fact that we want to rank a player based off a 6 year stretch against players who played out between 12 to 25 seasons seems ridiculous. Should we all be alive, let's revisit these rankings after Ohtani is out of the game and give him his proper ranking at that time. Maybe he is number 1 by then! Based on the possibility that he could just as easily fade from the game in a year, I don't see the need to rank him so high.

Even if he gets hit by a bus he’s a lock top 50 player and really top 40. I think he’s already worthy of top 30. He already HAS the resume especially with the unprecedented (except for Babe Ruth which is telling) force multiplier of pitching at a high level. You guys just can’t get past voting for someone still in his prime. The future will only move him higher but the present and past puts him easily late 20s

 

[msgkings322]

Venditte threw with both arms. That's special. Special itself isn't an argument for a player to make the Top 50. There has to be a resume. Eye tests, as accurate as they may prove to be eventually, is not a good determination. What if Dontrelle Willis was determined to be one of the greatest pitchers of all time at the age of 24? How many would argue against the eye test? He looked dominant and he was young. He was considered special. A generational talent. How did that go?

There has to be a resume, agreed. Ohtani has 3 mvps, equal to 10 other all time greats and trailing only one. Oh and he pitches I heard. That’s a top 30 resume.

 

[msgkings322]

Ohtani has played 7 seasons, Trout has played 14 seasons.

Ohtani has a 43.8 career WAR, Trout has a 86 career WAR. Should Ohtani maintain his pace, he could have Trout beat in career WAR by 1.6, if Trout does not add to his WAR in future seasons.

This isn't a vote on what we think will happen, should players continue in their greatness. Its based on a body of work now. Both have 3 MVPs, but Trout has the longer body of work. Do I think Ohtani will eventually be Top 10 (or Top 5)? Sure that is a strong possibility, should he continue his level of dominance. But many players have been sidetracked from greatness for a variety of reasons. I'm not going to assume that he is going to be all that, even though he looks like he will. I'm okay with voting him in much higher, if, after his career is all done, his resume justifies it.

Having 3 MVPs in 7 seasons is really impressive but its only 7 seasons so far. Trout got 3 within 6 years of each other and finished 2nd in the votes 3 other times (along with another 2 top 5 finishes). That is extremely impressive. Playing down Trout's actual resume while playing up Ohtani's potential resume seems rather ridiculous.

Again, Ohtani could eventually become the best player in all of MLB history. But that potential doesn't mean he gets Top 30 or 50 rankings now. Let him earn it just like all other players on this list earned it (not like Koufax and his "what could have been" ranking).

Already earned it (top 30). Potentially top 10 at least. Pretty simple.

 

[msgkings322]

I thought you said you were the “OG Ohtani guy”, or whatever? Weren’t you voting for him in the 10-15 range? Now ranking him that high is a sign of too many drugs being consumed?

Rickey Henderson was the first ranking on here that really bugged me. He played forever, of course, but he only had two top-5 MVP finishes in his entire career(winning 1). That ceiling felt nowhere near a top-20 guy to me. Ohtani slots higher in my view.

I respect that, but I already explained why I stopped nominating him. And I do respect the lack of WAR argument about him, the lack of counting stats matters. It’s enough to keep him from the top 20, a place he will almost surely attain but isn’t yet. It’s not all or none. His uniqueness is enough to get 48 WAR on the top 30 all time list but not enough to get him much higher IMO

His ranking will rise over time, where these others get it wrong is they don’t put him at the right place that accounts for what he has already done and who he obviously is

 

[msgkings322]

also, not sure about any of you... but as we have been going i have been fine tuning my criteria...

so i wonder if i would vote the same as i did in earlier rounds...

Yeah this has been fun on many levels and that’s one of them, the arguing and learning, had no idea about the careers of some of these and learned more about guys I already knew. It’s also natural for criteria to change as the list goes on, need different criteria to be top 10 than top 30.

I bet if the same 30 of us did this again the list would be different after about 7 or 8

 

[Clayton]

I think maybe Bonds at 2 and Walter Johnson at 6 and Aaron at 8 Clemens at 13 and Henderson at 24 and I think the list is way better.

 

[LHG]

Even if he gets hit by a bus he’s a lock top 50 player and really top 40. I think he’s already worthy of top 30. He already HAS the resume especially with the unprecedented (except for Babe Ruth which is telling) force multiplier of pitching at a high level. You guys just can’t get past voting for someone still in his prime. The future will only move him higher but the present and past puts him easily late 20s

Not sure I'd go Top 40 but I would agree he is already Top 50. His resume looks good for where he is at in his career but its far from complete.

Yes, he has thrown well in 3 seasons but that's not enough for me to rank him higher. It remains to be seen if he will pitch any more, much less as a traditional starter. He could very well become a full time DH for the rest of his career. If pitching well in three seasons get a boost, does being a full time DH for 12 seasons ding him?

 

[msgkings322]

Not sure I'd go Top 40 but I would agree he is already Top 50. His resume looks good for where he is at in his career but its far from complete.

Yes, he has thrown well in 3 seasons but that's not enough for me to rank him higher. It remains to be seen if he will pitch any more, much less as a traditional starter. He could very well become a full time DH for the rest of his career. If pitching well in three seasons get a boost, does being a full time DH for 12 seasons ding him?

Ruth didn’t pitch much longer than that, and was not a 2 way player like Ohtani. He is not a DH the way Edgar Martinez or David Ortiz were. And if he ever stops pitching you can be sure he will be playing right field, and well

Reasonable people can disagree but it’s good you have him top 50 already, just a matter of time and you’ll have him much higher. I’m just making that reality now

 

[LHG]

Ruth didn’t pitch much longer than that, and was not a 2 way player like Ohtani. He is not a DH the way Edgar Martinez or David Ortiz were. And if he ever stops pitching you can be sure he will be playing right field, and well

Reasonable people can disagree but it’s good you have him top 50 already, just a matter of time and you’ll have him much higher. I’m just making that reality now

I'm waiting for it to become reality before I rank him higher.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Ruth didn’t pitch much longer than that, and was not a 2 way player like Ohtani. He is not a DH the way Edgar Martinez or David Ortiz were. And if he ever stops pitching you can be sure he will be playing right field, and well

Reasonable people can disagree but it’s good you have him top 50 already, just a matter of time and you’ll have him much higher. I’m just making that reality now

For the most part I agree. But last year he was a DH only. Should that affect his overall value.

I think when it comes to war, they treat him as 2 different players. Ohtani as a dh. And Ohtani as a pitcher.

 

[msgkings322]

I'm waiting for it to become reality before I rank him higher.

I know and that's cool...I'm just recognizing it's already reality. I see it with my own eyes, there haven't been 30 players better than this one IMO.

 

[msgkings322]

For the most part I agree. But last year he was a DH only. Should that affect his overall value.

I think when it comes to war, they treat him as 2 different players. Ohtani as a dh. And Ohtani as a pitcher.

No that's combined, 28.8 WAR as a hitter, 15 WAR as a pitcher, total 43.8

 

[calsnowskier]

No that's combined, 28.8 WAR as a hitter, 15 WAR as a pitcher, total 43.8

WAR for pitchers, even if you want to accept it (which I don’t), is still on a different scale than WAR for a position player. Combining them shouldn’t be done.

 

[msgkings322]

WAR for pitchers, even if you want to accept it (which I don’t), is still on a different scale than WAR for a position player. Combining them shouldn’t be done.

How often does that problem come up? Just twice, with Babe Ruth and Shohei Ohtani. Which is a big part of my point. One could argue having WAR as both hitter and pitcher at the same time, you should not only combine them but maybe apply a multiplier having one guy on the roster doing the work of two.

Ruth by the way led the league in ERA+ in 1916 with 158. Yeah, he's GOAT. But even he didn't do both at the same time.

Ohtani is a baseball cheat code the way LeBron James is a basketball one.

 

[msgkings322]

More fun facts...Ruth in 1923 had 14.1 WAR lol

Highest season for Bonds was 2001 with 11.9

Williams did 10.4 in 1941, then 3 years off, then 10.5 and 10.6, those were his highest seasons.