POLL Top 10 poll: #14 player ever

[calsnowskier]

1) Babe Ruth (defeated Willie Mays 23-9)
2) Willie Mays (defeated Barry Bonds 26-11)
3) Ted Williams (defeated Barry Bonds 18-17)
4) Barry Bonds (defeated Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb 20-11-8)
5) Hank Aaron (defeated Ty Cobb 17-16)
6) Ty Cobb (defeated Lou Gehrig 24-9)
7) Lou Gehrig (defeated Walter Johnson 19-10)
8) Mickey Mantle (defeated Walter Johnson 17-12)
9) Walter Johnson (defeated Stan Musial and Rogers Hornsby 18-7-3)
10) Stan Musial (defeated Rogers Hornsby 15-10)
11) Rogers Hornsby (defeated H. Wagner, R. Henderson, M. Schmidt and R. Clemens 15-4-3-2-1)
12) Honus Wagner (defeated Roger Clemens 19-8)
13) Mike Schmidt (defeated Roger Clemens 16-12)

Who is the #14 player ever? This poll will close Saturday AM.

VOTE FOR 3!!

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[Clayton]

I have Rocket, Gray Eagle, and the Judge.

Clemens still my #1

Speaker #2. Really high WAR and WAR7. All time leader in doubles. Best I can tell he was a good defensive Centerfielder. Apparently a good coach as a player somehow.

Going with Frank Robinson as my #3. Frequent MVP candidate. Multiple Golden Glover. Really good bat. First Black coach.

 

[calsnowskier]

I have Rocket, Gray Eagle, and the Judge.

Clemens still my #1

Speaker #2. Really high WAR and WAR7. All time leader in doubles. Best I can tell he was a good defensive Centerfielder. Apparently a good coach as a player somehow.

Going with Frank Robinson as my #3. Frequent MVP candidate. Multiple Golden Glover. Really good bat. First Black coach.

I am seriously considering Robinson as one of my 3 votes. Though, right now, I think it sits at Clemens, Maddux and Rickey. I view Rickey and Robinson very close in value.

 

[calsnowskier]

I just noticed I failed to include Cy Young on the poll. He will be re-added next poll, assuming he doesn’t win here.

He had 3 votes at the 13 spot, fyi.

 

[LHG]

It seems, in my opinion, that this poll has become "Most Popular MLB players since 1950" now. Cy Young is off the list? I voted for him last round and will continue to do so. Its one thing that he is getting dropped this low, to completely ignore him now is really does put this whole thing at the edges of incredulity.

Closing your ears and being loud about all the favorite players you liked since TV was invented doesn't make that era go away or make this whole thing less of a farce because it is precisely in acknowledging the early years for some rounds and then ignoring it completely after those rounds that gives it a farcical quality. But that's just my humble opinion.

 

[calsnowskier]

It seems, in my opinion, that this poll has become "Most Popular MLB players since 1950" now. Cy Young is off the list? I voted for him last round and will continue to do so. Its one thing that he is getting dropped this low, to completely ignore him now is really does put this whole thing at the edges of incredulity.

Closing your ears and being loud about all the favorite players you liked since TV was invented doesn't make that era go away or make this whole thing less of a farce because it is precisely in acknowledging the early years for some rounds and then ignoring it completely after those rounds that gives it a farcical quality. But that's just my humble opinion.

There are TWO “current” players on the list, and we are now discussing #14. How could you possibly make the argument that this thing is just a post-1950 popularity contest?

 

[Clayton]

I am seriously considering Robinson as one of my 3 votes. Though, right now, I think it sits at Clemens, Maddux and Rickey. I view Rickey and Robinson very close in value.

Henderson is extremely tough. When I first started doing this I had him around 10 but really breaking things down I have him at 22. I suspect he is going 14 or 15 on here.

 

[LHG]

I just noticed I failed to include Cy Young on the poll. He will be re-added next poll, assuming he doesn’t win here.

He had 3 votes at the 13 spot, fyi.

It seems, in my opinion, that this poll has become "Most Popular MLB players since 1950" now. Cy Young is off the list? I voted for him last round and will continue to do so. Its one thing that he is getting dropped this low, to completely ignore him now is really does put this whole thing at the edges of incredulity.

Closing your ears and being loud about all the favorite players you liked since TV was invented doesn't make that era go away or make this whole thing less of a farce because it is precisely in acknowledging the early years for some rounds and then ignoring it completely after those rounds that gives it a farcical quality. But that's just my humble opinion.

So seeing this only slightly weakens my thoughts.

Cal, where do you see Cy Young ranking all time? I see you poo poo WAR and other stats but I've yet to see you mention how you would evaluate pitchers for this purpose. I am asking you because you post about the conundrum of ranking pitchers for this list as a "hey, maybe someone needs to figure this out someday" but you initiated this whole thing. You've had to given it more thought, right?

Man, Cy Young needs to be ranked #14 in this list. Let's look at him a bit more.
His best season (1901), he led MLB with an ERA+ of 219 (!!!).
His 2nd best season (1908) had an ERA+ of 195.
His 3rd best season (1892) had an ERA+ of 175.
He had another 1 season of an ERA+ of 160 or greater.
Two more seasons of an ERA+ of 150 or greater.
Four more seasons of an ERA+ of 140 or greater.
Three more seasons of an ERA+ of 130 or greater.
The dude was dominant and deserves to be in the Top 15 All Time (Top 10 even).

 

[LHG]

There are TWO “current” players on the list, and we are now discussing #14. How could you possibly make the argument that this thing is just a post-1950 popularity contest?

I mean popularity contest moving forward. The "pre modern fatigue". The lack of real consideration for anyone before Robinson in these conversations (by the way, conversely speaking, once one of my three get voted, I'm making Trout to my 3rd vote).

Of course, this may all just be me getting over the flu. This week has been awful and I've been more cranky than usual as a result.

 

[calsnowskier]

Henderson is extremely tough. When I first started doing this I had him around 10 but really breaking things down I have him at 22. I suspect he is going 14 or 15 on here.

Based on the last few polls I expect this to come down to Clemens v Henderson. And I think Clemens will finally get his spot here. Both are somewhat controversial names in this discussion, so there isn’t going to be a “safe” vote.

 

[calsnowskier]

So seeing this only slightly weakens my thoughts.

Cal, where do you see Cy Young ranking all time? I see you poo poo WAR and other stats but I've yet to see you mention how you would evaluate pitchers for this purpose. I am asking you because you post about the conundrum of ranking pitchers for this list as a "hey, maybe someone needs to figure this out someday" but you initiated this whole thing. You've had to given it more thought, right?

Man, Cy Young needs to be ranked #14 in this list. Let's look at him a bit more.
His best season (1901), he led MLB with an ERA+ of 219 (!!!).
His 2nd best season (1908) had an ERA+ of 195.
His 3rd best season (1892) had an ERA+ of 175.
He had another 1 season of an ERA+ of 160 or greater.
Two more seasons of an ERA+ of 150 or greater.
Four more seasons of an ERA+ of 140 or greater.
Three more seasons of an ERA+ of 130 or greater.
The dude was dominant and deserves to be in the Top 15 All Time (Top 10 even).

Honestly, I view him as about the #5 or so pitcher all time. I think the ‘90/‘00 pitchers were all-time greats. Everyone was looking at the hitters, but right behind them were a group of the greatest pitchers the game has ever seen.

i see Clemens, Maddux, Walter, Seaver, Paige (based on legend) and maybe Randy and Gibson as all better than Young.

He is synonymous with “great pitcher” because of the award that bears his name. But that award was created a LONG time ago. A LOT of better pitchers have come along since.

 

[Clayton]

So seeing this only slightly weakens my thoughts.

Cal, where do you see Cy Young ranking all time? I see you poo poo WAR and other stats but I've yet to see you mention how you would evaluate pitchers for this purpose. I am asking you because you post about the conundrum of ranking pitchers for this list as a "hey, maybe someone needs to figure this out someday" but you initiated this whole thing. You've had to given it more thought, right?

Man, Cy Young needs to be ranked #14 in this list. Let's look at him a bit more.
His best season (1901), he led MLB with an ERA+ of 219 (!!!).
His 2nd best season (1908) had an ERA+ of 195.
His 3rd best season (1892) had an ERA+ of 175.
He had another 1 season of an ERA+ of 160 or greater.
Two more seasons of an ERA+ of 150 or greater.
Four more seasons of an ERA+ of 140 or greater.
Three more seasons of an ERA+ of 130 or greater.
The dude was dominant and deserves to be in the Top 15 All Time (Top 10 even).

I think I'll consider him once Clemens is off the board. I think once we put Wagner on this list we have to at least consider Young. Young making Wagner look bad in a head to head really isnt enough for me to put him on the board but there is a ton of accumulation there.

 

[calsnowskier]

I mean popularity contest moving forward. The "pre modern fatigue". The lack of real consideration for anyone before Robinson in these conversations (by the way, conversely speaking, once one of my three get voted, I'm making Trout to my 3rd vote).

Of course, this may all just be me getting over the flu. This week has been awful and I've been more cranky than usual as a result.

The top 12 were ALL “older guys”. By definition, that thins the herd of those eras. Meanwhile the “modern era” has not lost any of its players. Of course there could/should be more of those players represented at this point.

 

[LHG]

Honestly, I view him as about the #5 or so pitcher all time. I think the ‘90/‘00 pitchers were all-time greats. Everyone was looking at the hitters, but right behind them were a group of the greatest pitchers the game has ever seen.

i see Clemens, Maddux, Walter, Seaver, Paige (based on legend) and maybe Randy and Gibson as all better than Young.

He is synonymous with “great pitcher” because of the award that bears his name. But that award was created a LONG time ago. A LOT of better pitchers have come along since.

Okay, let's compare ERA+ seasons (if I'm doing the breakdowns that you created correctly) between Young and Greg Maddux:

200+ - Young (1), Maddux (2)
190-199 - Young (1), Maddux (0)
180-189 - Young (0), Maddux (2)
170-179 - Young (1), Maddux (1)
160-169 - Young (1), Maddux (2)
150-159 - Young (2), Maddux (2)
140-149 - Young (4), Maddux (1)
130-139 - Young (3), Maddux (0)
120-129 - Young (4), Maddux (2)

The length of their careers are fairly close - 22 seasons for Young and 23 seasons for Maddux. Young has a career ERA+ of 138, while Maddux is 132. At the very least, I'd say Young belongs in the conversation at the same level as the others, if not slightly above.

And my apologies for getting a bit unhinged on this poll. I try to stay measured and moderate in my responses on the Giants' forum. I had no idea that I would feel so strongly for the players that I've stumped for while doing this. Going to work on that going forward.

 

[calsnowskier]

I think I'll consider him once Clemens is off the board. I think once we put Wagner on this list we have to at least consider Young. Young making Wagner look bad in a head to head really isnt enough for me to put him on the board but there is a ton of accumulation there.

Imho, Wagner was the bottom of the old-timer GREAT list. I think there is enough of a gap between Wagner and Speaker that that is a good spot to really look at other eras. ABD Young is far enough down the pitcher list that he really isn’t a focus for me. And there is still Christy Mathewson sitting right next to him stealing some of his shine.

and Lefty Grove and Kid Nichol and…

 

[LHG]

The top 12 were ALL “older guys”. By definition, that thins the herd of those eras. Meanwhile the “modern era” has not lost any of its players. Of course there could/should be more of those players represented at this point.

Not true though. Just because there are more players than one expected from a certain area doesn't mean that there are no more to consider. That does seem like an arbitrary decision to make. (And are you really forgetting Bonds is in the list? As is Aaron?)

 

[Clayton]

I think there is enough of a gap between Wagner and Speaker that that is a good spot to really look at other eras. ABD Young is far enough down the pitcher list that he really isn’t a focus for me. And there is still Christy Mathewson sitting right next to him stealing some of his shine.

and Lefty Grove and Kid Nichol and…

I think Speaker was actually a little above Wagner in the same tier. Young is the hardest player for me to rank. I dont think his style translates. I think to a certain degree Mathewson and maybe Lefty were as respected or more respected.

 

[calsnowskier]

Okay, let's compare ERA+ seasons (if I'm doing the breakdowns that you created correctly) between Young and Greg Maddux:

200+ - Young (1), Maddux (2)
190-199 - Young (1), Maddux (0)
180-189 - Young (0), Maddux (2)
170-179 - Young (1), Maddux (1)
160-169 - Young (1), Maddux (2)
150-159 - Young (2), Maddux (2)
140-149 - Young (4), Maddux (1)
130-139 - Young (3), Maddux (0)
120-129 - Young (4), Maddux (2)

The length of their careers are fairly close - 22 seasons for Young and 23 seasons for Maddux. Young has a career ERA+ of 138, while Maddux is 132. At the very least, I'd say Young belongs in the conversation at the same level as the others, if not slightly above.

And my apologies for getting a bit unhinged on this poll. I try to stay measured and moderate in my responses on the Giants' forum. I had no idea that I would feel so strongly for the players that I've stumped for while doing this. Going to work on that going forward.

Young did it in a time where the hitters couldn’t watch video of him to pick up tells. Maddux is possibly the greatest control pitcher in the history of the game.

I don’t really look at ERA+ at the career scale, but even then, they are super close. Enough that I would call them a wash In that regard.

No apologies needed. We all love baseball. And you are one of (if not THE) most respected posters in my eyes. Getting passionate is AWESOME. We have almost 20 years of history together. You could go on a personal tirade against me, and we will still find our way out of it. No worries.

 

[steveringo]

Henderson is extremely tough. When I first started doing this I had him around 10 but really breaking things down I have him at 22. I suspect he is going 14 or 15 on here.

Omg. That is awesome.... when this started, I had him about 30. The great discussions here have made me adjust him up to about 22....

 

[steveringo]

Side observations.. Bonds is probably the #1 poster boy for steroids (and Clemens isn't far behind)... Bonds was also a major arrogant prick (and Clemens isn't far behind)...

How people here voted for Bonds, but are skipping Clemens is weird... I m o...