POLL Top 10 poll: #13 player ever

[msgkings322]

OPS+ is worthless outside of seasonal buckets, imho. And you comparing the two using Trouts argument, not Rickey’s. Rickey is not trying to get on this list primarily due to his bat. Meanwhile that is 95% of Trout’s argument.

Trout's a pretty great fielder too, and used to steal bases...

 

[Cedrique]

I just looked it up. He got to the bigs in his age 24 season. Not really a “late bloomer”.

That's a little late. His birthday is in April and his first full season was his age 25 season. Eddie Murray had like 800 hits by then. And at the extreme, look at what Juan Soto has done.

 

[calsnowskier]

That's a little late. His birthday is in April and his first full season was his age 25 season. Eddie Murray had like 800 hits by then. And at the extreme, look at what Juan Soto has done.

Soto (and Albies and Acunia) may be in this discussion when all is said.

But I am shocked that you are arguing that Murray belongs on this list before Judge. That is indefensible, and I am tempted to officially ban you from further participation.

 

[Cedrique]

Soto (and Albies and Acunia) may be in this discussion when all is said.

But I am shocked that you are arguing that Murray belongs on this list before Judge. That is indefensible, and I am tempted to officially ban you from further participation.

No, not arguing that. I do remember growing up in the late 70's early 80's how they would talk about how you had to start young to make the hall of fame, presumably because it was more based on reaching career milestones in counting stats because we didn't have the technology to easily dissect it like we do now. Plus a lot of the guys going into the hall of fame at that time had very long careers and put up some big numbers. " Yaz-400 homers 3000 hits, -I don't need to know his WAR or OPS+, that's a hall of famer".
It did work out for Murray- Before the steroid era no one would try to keep out a guy with 3000 hits and 500 home runs.

And yes I realize that we are not talking about the hall of fame here, just making conversation.

 

[Cedrique]

soto is interesting... we know he is a great hitter... maybe the best pure hitter in baseball right now... but if you look at his WAR, WAR just doesnt love him... sure, most of that is because he plays a terrible defense... but you would think his WAR would be higher... He was only top 10 twice, and top 5 once...

he is a good example of where the eye test tells you one thing and WAR tells you another... especially when his OPS+ and other hitting only stats are high...

Having seen him a lot on the Nats and Yankees I can vouch for his defense-it sucks. But he's one of the best hitters in the game and he's only 25 so I wouldn't be surprised if he had even better power numbers in the future.

 

[Cedrique]

Soto (and Albies and Acunia) may be in this discussion when all is said.

But I am shocked that you are arguing that Murray belongs on this list before Judge. That is indefensible, and I am tempted to officially ban you from further participation.

Betts is pretty amazing too. Who moves from another position To Shortstop when he's 31 years old-and does well? Pretty much Nobody but Betts

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Having seen him a lot on the Nats and Yankees I can vouch for his defense-it sucks. But he's one of the best hitters in the game and he's only 25 so I wouldn't be surprised if he had even better power numbers in the future.

i deleted that post, because i did see that a couple of the seasons he did not play a full season.. which explains why his WAR was so low...

but even with that, you would think that a player of that caliber would be higher...

i also see him to be a great candidate for a player to burn out... coming in the league at 19, and being all about money now... not sure how serious he will take the game...

especially with his long contract with the mets... sure he has an opt out... and that opt out will make him want to use it to negotiate even a better contract... but if he struggles before the opt out... he might just go into cruise control...

 

[eaglesnut]

Guys, Pujols was insane. I have an info graphic somewhere of his consistent domination.

 

[calsnowskier]

No, not arguing that. I do remember growing up in the late 70's early 80's how they would talk about how you had to start young to make the hall of fame, presumably because it was more based on reaching career milestones in counting stats because we didn't have the technology to easily dissect it like we do now. Plus a lot of the guys going into the hall of fame at that time had very long careers and put up some big numbers. " Yaz-400 homers 3000 hits, -I don't need to know his WAR or OPS+, that's a hall of famer".
It did work out for Murray- Before the steroid era no one would try to keep out a guy with 3000 hits and 500 home runs.

And yes I realize that we are not talking about the hall of fame here, just making conversation.

Sorry. My deadpan delivery gets lost sometimes. My “attack” on you was completely tongue in cheek. You CLEARLY were not claiming Murray was anywhere in the neighborhood of this list. You were just using his age as a point. And I got that.

 

[calsnowskier]

Betts is pretty amazing too. Who moves from another position To Shortstop when he's 31 years old-and does well? Pretty much Nobody but Betts

Yount, Biggio, Gant…

Just naming some pretty high profile position change players. Betts may be the most successful of the bunch (though Biggio’s is damn impressive)

 

[Cedrique]

i deleted that post, because i did see that a couple of the seasons he did not play a full season.. which explains why his WAR was so low...

but even with that, you would think that a player of that caliber would be higher...

i also see him to be a great candidate for a player to burn out... coming in the league at 19, and being all about money now... not sure how serious he will take the game...

especially with his long contract with the mets... sure he has an opt out... and that opt out will make him want to use it to negotiate even a better contract... but if he struggles before the opt out... he might just go into cruise control...

Yeah I guess it depends on the guy and the situation. LeBron James started at 19 and he's still going. Bryce Harper was 19 when he started and he's 31 and asking for an Extension.

 

[Cedrique]

Sorry. My deadpan delivery gets lost sometimes. My “attack” on you was completely tongue in cheek. You CLEARLY were not claiming Murray was anywhere in the neighborhood of this list. You were just using his age as a point. And I got that.

Yeah I figured that was the case

 

[calsnowskier]

i deleted that post, because i did see that a couple of the seasons he did not play a full season.. which explains why his WAR was so low...

but even with that, you would think that a player of that caliber would be higher...

i also see him to be a great candidate for a player to burn out... coming in the league at 19, and being all about money now... not sure how serious he will take the game...

especially with his long contract with the mets... sure he has an opt out... and that opt out will make him want to use it to negotiate even a better contract... but if he struggles before the opt out... he might just go into cruise control...

I totally understand it is out of his hands for the most part, but he is already with his 4th team and he is only 26. Even if he is a loyal guy in his heart and wants to be a “one-team” player, getting shuffled around like that so much in his young years establishes him as a merc. Right or wrong.

One of the main complaints about T.O. Was that sooo many teams were so quick and willing to get in off their rosters, despite the clear, OMG numbers he was putting up. Is Soto a locker room cancer the way T.O. was? The Nats were willing to part with him. The Padres were willing to part with him. The Yanks decided he was not a “Yankee at any cost” player. Each individual instance can be explained away. But a pattern like that starts to tell a story.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yeah I guess it depends on the guy and the situation. LeBron James started at 19 and he's still going. Bryce Harper was 19 when he started and he's 31 and asking for an Extension.

clearly, i cant base it on anything besides feel... But Soto absolutely feels like a burn out type player... a play for the money only...

i really do hope i am wrong, because i would love to see the Mets be good again... but i am very nervous for them...

luckily the mets have a few years before the opt out where Soto has reason to play still...

 

[calsnowskier]

Yeah I guess it depends on the guy and the situation. LeBron James started at 19 and he's still going. Bryce Harper was 19 when he started and he's 31 and asking for an Extension.

How has Harper’s name not been mentioned before this post?

 

[Cedrique]

Yount, Biggio, Gant…

Just naming some pretty high profile position change players. Betts may be the most successful of the bunch (though Biggio’s is damn impressive)

Yeah but Yount went from SS to Centerfield. No one goes To Shortstop at age 31. Yeah Biggio was an interesting one. Dale Murphy started as a catcher as well.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

How has Harper’s name not been mentioned before this post?

he is basically Judge Light...

 

[calsnowskier]

Yeah but Yount went from SS to Centerfield. No one goes To Shortstop at age 31. Yeah Biggio was an interesting one. Dale Murphy started as a catcher as well.

Kevin Mitchell came up as a catcher as well before moving down the 3B line throughout his career. Same with Pablo Sandoval. He never played 3B until the majors (a small handful of games in the minors). And he ended up being a + defender at 3B (despite what Red Sox fans saw).

 

[chappee11]

I totally understand it is out of his hands for the most part, but he is already with his 4th team and he is only 26. Even if he is a loyal guy in his heart and wants to be a “one-team” player, getting shuffled around like that so much in his young years establishes him as a merc. Right or wrong.

One of the main complaints about T.O. Was that sooo many teams were so quick and willing to get in off their rosters, despite the clear, OMG numbers he was putting up. Is Soto a locker room cancer the way T.O. was? The Nats were willing to part with him. The Padres were willing to part with him. The Yanks decided he was not a “Yankee at any cost” player. Each individual instance can be explained away. But a pattern like that starts to tell a story.

There are no reports whatsoever about Soto being a bad clubhouse guy. To the contrary, actually. The Nationals made him a massive offer that he declined, so they wanted to recoup some assets before he left. Same thing for the Padres. The Yankees offered over $700M to keep him but were just outbid. Everything I read about Soto’s impact on the Yankees was a positive.

 

[calsnowskier]

There are no reports whatsoever about Soto being a bad clubhouse guy. To the contract, actually. The Nationals made him a massive offer that he declined, so they wanted to recoup some assets before he left. Same thing for the Padres. The Yankees offered over $700M to keep him but were just outbid. Everything I read about Soto’s impact on the Yankees was a positive.

So he is an overt merc. I was trying to give him credit since it was never his direct choice to move around (until signing with the Mets).

He and Trout are kinda the polar opposites in this regard, yet I am the only person I see ever bring it up.