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POLL Top 10 poll: #13 player ever

Who is the #13 player in baseball history? Vote for 3!!

  • Yogi Berra

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Christy Mathewson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Johnny Bench

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Joe Morgan

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bob Gibson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Tom Seaver

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Frank Robinson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Frank Thomas

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Nap Lajoie

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mel Ott

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mike Trout

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Eddie Collins

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Grover Alexander

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Adrian Beltre

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Al Kaline

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other (Name in comments)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .

chappee11

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Jimmie Foxx at 4 votes?

I know WAR isnt everything but head to head on seasons with Pujols

Foxx has the best prime season
Pujols has the better 2nd best season
Pujols has the better 3rd best season
Pujols has the better 4th best season
Pujols has the better 5th best season
Pujols has the better 6th best season
Pujols has the better 7th best season
Pujols has the better 8th best season
Pujols has the better 9th best season
Pujols has the better 10th best season
Pujols has the better 11th best season
Pujols has the better 12th best season
Pujols has the better 13th best season
Foxx has the better 14th best season
Pujols has the better 15th best season
Pujols has the better 16th best season
Pujols has the better 17th best season
Pujols has the better 18th best season
Pujols has the better 19th best season
Pujols almost definitely the 2nd best 1B of all-time, no? I’d have him ahead of Foxx, for sure.
 

Cedrique

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We are doing an all time player list. Not an all time pitching or an all time batting

Your superhero example. Same thing it is all about what you are measuring. Is it heroes, villains, or just characters. If it is just characters then other people besides heroes and villains can make the list as well.

The problem with pitching and why it is not getting enough focus is that Roger Clemens is up there for serious discussion. But there is a bunch of other pitchers not to far away. So we are having trouble getting past Clemens.

Unlike with bonds, once we past Ted Williams, nobody was able to argue for the other guy.
I know, but I'm still going to have trouble comparing pitchers and hitters after Clemens is gone, especially from different eras.
 

MilkSpiller22

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I know, but I'm still going to have trouble comparing pitchers and hitters after Clemens is gone, especially from different eras.

clemens aint going to be picked for a while... which sucks because we will probably just continue doing offense...

the pro-clemens people wont jump clemens to go to Seaver, Johnson or Maddux...

and the anti clemens people wont get enough support for any pitcher.... as once you go past Clemens, it really is all so tight....
 

msgkings322

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The further we get into this the more I hate the fact that we're mixing hitters and pitchers together. It's really hard to compare their accomplishments. They played the same game but had completely different jobs. Like I don't know much about super heroes and Marvell and whatnot but do you make lists of the best characters that include Batman, Superman and the Joker or do you separate them out and talk about best super heroes and best villains?
The added difficulty makes this more fun not less, IMO
 

MilkSpiller22

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The added difficulty makes this more fun not less, IMO

meh... i get what you are saying... and idealy i would agree...

but when you cant even decide who the next SP is, it makes it harder for any pitcher to get picked...

and clemens being a pariah is just pushing EVERY pitcher down in this...
 

msgkings322

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meh... i get what you are saying... and idealy i would agree...

but when you cant even decide who the next SP is, it makes it harder for any pitcher to get picked...

and clemens being a pariah is just pushing EVERY pitcher down in this...
Again, the more difficult it is, the more fun it is for us baseball nerds.
 

calsnowskier

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You are kind of all over the place here. Several things can be true at the same time:

1. We KNOW Clemens used. Brian McNamee documented his injecting schedule in great detail.
2. The things he used were not banned by MLB at the time(though illegal in general)
3. A data guy has to look at the 4 year gulf from 1993-1996 with some suspicion given how he pitched after that as he got older.

It’s all there in front of you. He was great before the PEDs, of course. But he was superhuman with the PEDs. Similar trajectory as Bonds, actually.
But he never failed an official test. He reportedly failed a “census” test for the sole purpose of gauging the prevalence of its use. And it wasn’t against baseball rules at the time anyway, so this is a complete non-issue.

Cano, ARod and Pettitte failed tests while it was (baseball) illegal. And while it’s use was damn near the sole focus of everything in the game.

Do I, personally, know he used? No I don’t. Neither do you. Do I, personally, BELIEVE he used? 100%.

The same with Bonds. The same with Sheffield. The same with Ortiz. The same with Palmeiro. The same with Sosa. The same with McGwire.

Clemens followed the rules that existed while he played. Period.
 

Cedrique

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The added difficulty makes this more fun not less, IMO
But I take it too seriously, so it's not Fun. In fact, I'll be quite frank- if Bobby Grich isn't on the list in the next round I'm gonna fucking lose it!
 

MilkSpiller22

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Again, the more difficult it is, the more fun it is for us baseball nerds.

i do think once we either let Clemens through, or jump him, it will get fun again to debate pitcher vs batter... but until then, pitcher is going to lose simply because of popularity contest...
 

calsnowskier

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Pujols almost definitely the 2nd best 1B of all-time, no? I’d have him ahead of Foxx, for sure.
I won’t have time to put together one of my deep dive comparisons, but I would like to see one of them Pujols, Foxx, Gehrig and Schmidt. Foxx and Schmidt look pretty similar actually. But with Schmidt playing a more critical defensive position (and it damn well), I think he pretty much wins any comparison.

Looking at Gehrig/Foxx/Pujols would be interesting, because I am not certain Pujols is that far behind Gehrig.
 

calsnowskier

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meh... i get what you are saying... and idealy i would agree...

but when you cant even decide who the next SP is, it makes it harder for any pitcher to get picked...

and clemens being a pariah is just pushing EVERY pitcher down in this...
Meh. I am beginning to seriously consider Maddux at this point. But not because I think “it is time for a pitcher”, but because I think he is near the top of the available players. I have Clemens #1 on the board. But after him, I have both pitchers and hitters on my short list.
 

msgkings322

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Meh. I am beginning to seriously consider Maddux at this point. But not because I think “it is time for a pitcher”, but because I think he is near the top of the available players. I have Clemens #1 on the board. But after him, I have both pitchers and hitters on my short list.
I'm nominating a pitcher, a hitter, and Ohtani (since he's both) every time because that's what I wanna do LOL
 

MilkSpiller22

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Meh. I am beginning to seriously consider Maddux at this point. But not because I think “it is time for a pitcher”, but because I think he is near the top of the available players. I have Clemens #1 on the board. But after him, I have both pitchers and hitters on my short list.


the difference between Maddux and Johnson or Pedro is much less aparent than the difference between Clemens and the other 3...

i might jump them all and go to Seaver... maybe stay away entirely of the steroid era until we get more movement in it...
 

chappee11

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Is it really unanimous that everyone prefers Rickey Henderson to Trout? Because I’m not buying it.

Note: This is NOT me stumping for Trout at this stage of the rankings.
 
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MilkSpiller22

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Is it really unanimous that everyone prefers Rickey Henderson to Trout? Because I’m not buying it.

Note: This is NOT me stumping for Trout at this stage of the rankings.


said this about trout in another thread... he will age better in this lists... we look at him and his acceptance of mediocrity hurts him... and his injury concerns are souring how we currently think about him,,

but in 10 to 20 years, and we just base him on his stats alone, his peak is comparable to players in our top 10...
 

chappee11

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I won’t have time to put together one of my deep dive comparisons, but I would like to see one of them Pujols, Foxx, Gehrig and Schmidt. Foxx and Schmidt look pretty similar actually. But with Schmidt playing a more critical defensive position (and it damn well), I think he pretty much wins any comparison.

Looking at Gehrig/Foxx/Pujols would be interesting, because I am not certain Pujols is that far behind Gehrig.
The other 3 members of the 700 HR Club came off the board long ago. Only Pujols remains. His time should be coming in the next 4-5 guys, maybe?
 

calsnowskier

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Is it really unanimous that everyone prefers Rickey Henderson to Trout? Because I’m not buying it.

Note: This is NOT me stumping for Trout at this stage of the rankings.
For me, yes. We are almost in the trout consideration neighborhood, I think, but he is RIGHT NOW still a notch or so below Rickey.

If he is able to add a season or two to his WAR7, than maybe he can jump Rickey. But right now, he just doesn’t have the resume.
 

chappee11

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said this about trout in another thread... he will age better in this lists... we look at him and his acceptance of mediocrity hurts him... and his injury concerns are souring how we currently think about him,,

but in 10 to 20 years, and we just base him on his stats alone, his peak is comparable to players in our top 10...
100%. 3 MVPs and 4 second place finishes for
MVP. Thats about as elite as one can ever be. I hope he has a few good years left in the tank because he really should be a slam dunk for greatest player of this era.
 

calsnowskier

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The other 3 members of the 700 HR Club came off the board long ago. Only Pujols remains. His time should be coming in the next 4-5 guys, maybe?
I wouldn’t be shocked if gets a spot in that range. But he hit his HRs in a live ball era.

And I do not assume he was clean, so he gets no bonus points from me for that (same with Griffey and Thome).
 

msgkings322

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said this about trout in another thread... he will age better in this lists... we look at him and his acceptance of mediocrity hurts him... and his injury concerns are souring how we currently think about him,,

but in 10 to 20 years, and we just base him on his stats alone, his peak is comparable to players in our top 10...
This comment got me looking at Trout. He led the league in WAR 5 times in a row...I wonder how many others have done that. I looked at Ruth who did it 6 times in a row (and 5 more times besides). I wonder how many others have done that...
 
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