Top 10 poll: #9 player ever

[LHG]

Yeah it’s weird which names get more love than they should and which get less. Everyone has their own subjective opinion.

I think with Speaker and Hornsby and Young there’s era fatigue. People don’t want to keep voting for numbers on a page instead of people they have seen play or at least seen highlights of (or movies about like Mantle)

But look at the top 4 vote getters in this round - none of them played past 1937. I think Speaker just doesn't seem to get much mention as greatest players of all time in baseball and its odd. At least offensively, he is better than Honus Wagner but Wagner is getting a lot more traction right now than Speaker. I wonder how much of that is hearing how much money a Wagner baseball card went in an auction 25+ years ago. Guys like Henderson (whom I see as a bit overrated, but still very good), Clemens and Ohtani (gag! I'm of the opinion that he shouldn't be anywhere near Top 25 until he's put in at least 5 more really good years) are getting some traction but there is still a general sense that stats and stories from yesteryear aren't really getting boring yet.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But look at the top 4 vote getters in this round - none of them played past 1937. I think Speaker just doesn't seem to get much mention as greatest players of all time in baseball and its odd. At least offensively, he is better than Honus Wagner but Wagner is getting a lot more traction right now than Speaker. I wonder how much of that is hearing how much money a Wagner baseball card went in an auction 25+ years ago. Guys like Henderson (whom I see as a bit overrated, but still very good), Clemens and Ohtani (gag! I'm of the opinion that he shouldn't be anywhere near Top 25 until he's put in at least 5 more really good years) are getting some traction but there is still a general sense that stats and stories from yesteryear aren't really getting boring yet.

Speaker vs Wagner. It hurts speaker that he would be the 4th CF.

Wagner would be the first ss.

 

[LHG]

Speaker vs Wagner. It hurts speaker that he would be the 4th CF.

Wagner would be the first ss.

I can't help it that a lesser center fielder just got placed on the list.

 

[calsnowskier]

But look at the top 4 vote getters in this round - none of them played past 1937. I think Speaker just doesn't seem to get much mention as greatest players of all time in baseball and its odd. At least offensively, he is better than Honus Wagner but Wagner is getting a lot more traction right now than Speaker. I wonder how much of that is hearing how much money a Wagner baseball card went in an auction 25+ years ago. Guys like Henderson (whom I see as a bit overrated, but still very good), Clemens and Ohtani (gag! I'm of the opinion that he shouldn't be anywhere near Top 25 until he's put in at least 5 more really good years) are getting some traction but there is still a general sense that stats and stories from yesteryear aren't really getting boring yet.

Can you defend Speaker over Wagner? I did a comparison of them a few threads back and found that they were SUPER close, but came to the conclusion that Wagner was better BEFORE giving Wagner the positional bonus.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Can you defend Speaker over Wagner? I did a comparison of them a few threads back and found that they were SUPER close, but came to the conclusion that Wagner was better BEFORE giving Wagner the positional bonus.

Actually if it were between them two I would pick speaker and i don’t think it is very close.

And semi surprised you came up with Wagner. Would have thought your hatred to pre1900s would ding Wagner.

 

[calsnowskier]

I looked back at my study, and found that the one I was thinking of was Hornsby/Wagner/Gehrig. And Hornsby was the best of the three.

Speaker was brought up later in the thread, and I did a QUICK study of Speaker/Hornsby/Wagner and Speaker and Wagner were very close. Hornsby is a notch ahead, so I am not that concerned with the study just yet regarding Speaker v Wagner.

Wagner played from ‘97 - ‘17 while Speaker played from ‘07 - ‘28. They are contemporaries the same way Henderson and Bonds are contemporaries.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I looked back at my study, and found that the one I was thinking of was Hornsby/Wagner/Gehrig. And Hornsby was the best of the three.

Speaker was brought up later in the thread, and I did a QUICK study of Speaker/Hornsby/Wagner and Speaker and Wagner were very close. Hornsby is a notch ahead, so I am not that concerned with the study just yet regarding Speaker v Wagner.

Wagner played from ‘97 - ‘17 while Speaker played from ‘07 - ‘28. They are contemporaries the same way Henderson and Bonds are contemporaries.

That makes more sense. I was actually quite surprised you would have Wagner over speaker. So hearing that it was a different comparison makes sense.

And I agree neither are my top 5 available. And as long as Johnson and Hornsby are around they should get the votes over Wagner or speaker.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

here are some fun 1vs 1 comparisons where we are thinking of one and not the other

Gehrig vs Pujols

Hornsby vs Joe Morgan vs jackie Robinson

Tris speaker vs Miker Trout Vs Ken Griffey JR

Honus Wagner vs Arod

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Then there are the current 3 that dont have enough years or stats, but have the eliteness of anyone else...

Judge, Betts, Ohtani...

betts is a WAR darling thanks to his defense...

Judge, has 2 seasons where he is a top 25 oWAR of all time( 6th and 22nd)

and then Ohtani who is the baseball unicorn... someone none of us have ever seen....

 

[MilkSpiller22]

i will also say... i like that the n3gro leagues get more attention now...

but i hate how baseball reference have not separated the league leaders yet...

 

[calsnowskier]

here are some fun 1vs 1 comparisons where we are thinking of one and not the other

Gehrig vs Pujols

Hornsby vs Joe Morgan vs jackie Robinson

Tris speaker vs Miker Trout Vs Ken Griffey JR

Honus Wagner vs Arod

Jackie, story aside, does not belong in this discussion yet. Morgan is the 2B GOAT, comfortably. And putting Morgan and Jackie in the same bucket as Hornsby is an odd grouping.

Same with Speaker (an accumulator) with Kid and Trout? No active player can be compared to one of the great accumulators.

Wagner and ARod are a good comparison. But there is obvious “noise” there.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Jackie, story aside, does not belong in this discussion yet. Morgan is the 2B GOAT, comfortably. And putting Morgan and Jackie in the same bucket as Hornsby is an odd grouping.

Same with Speaker (an accumulator) with Kid and Trout? No active player can be compared to one of the great accumulators.

Wagner and ARod are a good comparison. But there is obvious “noise” there.

if morgan is the 2b goat then why are we talking about Hornsby here?? unless you are saying Hornsby is a 1b and not a 2b...

and i just compared players at their positions... not their style of play...

 

[calsnowskier]

if morgan is the 2b goat then why are we talking about Hornsby here?? unless you are saying Hornsby is a 1b and not a 2b...

and i just compared players at their positions... not their style of play...

I am dumb. I had Hornsby as an OF.

 

[LHG]

Can you defend Speaker over Wagner? I did a comparison of them a few threads back and found that they were SUPER close, but came to the conclusion that Wagner was better BEFORE giving Wagner the positional bonus.

Well, aren't you a lazy butt? Just kidding, I know the onus is on me to prove my point.

Career - Speaker - 21 seasons; Wagner - 20 seasons
Career WAR - Speaker - 134.9; Wagner - 131
OPS+ - Speaker - 158; Wagner - 151
WAR7 - Speaker - 62.7; Wagner - 65.5
Plus, Speaker holds the all time record for most doubles hit in a career. Wagner is 10th all time.

They are very close but I'd say Speaker gets a slight edge. I wouldn't be bothered, though, if Wagner was a spot above Speaker. I could see it go either way. My initial point with Speaker is that he is getting no votes and no traction in the discussions while Wagner is getting mentioned and votes.

 

[LHG]

That makes more sense. I was actually quite surprised you would have Wagner over speaker. So hearing that it was a different comparison makes sense.

And I agree neither are my top 5 available. And as long as Johnson and Hornsby are around they should get the votes over Wagner or speaker.

I agree that Johnson and Hornsby should be getting the love right now. I also think Cy Young should be seriously considered. I think that our era where wins are relatively meaningless has hurt his career from our perspectives. The dude was dominant even for his era. He and Johnson overlapped for only 4 seasons. The next closest pitcher in Young's time is Kid Nichols and it isn't that close.

 

[LHG]

if morgan is the 2b goat then why are we talking about Hornsby here?? unless you are saying Hornsby is a 1b and not a 2b...

and i just compared players at their positions... not their style of play...

When talking about 2nd basemen, we've also forgotten Eddie Collins and Nap Lajoie.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

When talking about 2nd basemen, we've also forgotten Eddie Collins and Nap Lajoie.

wouldnt say forgotten... but both collins and nap were before Hornsby... and are pretty comparable because the periods were not significantly different other than the HR boom...

and hornsby was still better than the other 2 in every hitting stat...

 

[LHG]

wouldnt say forgotten... but both collins and nap were before Hornsby... and are pretty comparable because the periods were not significantly different other than the HR boom...

and hornsby was still better than the other 2 in every hitting stat...

I do agree that Hornsby is better than both. But they may give Joe Morgan a run for his money at the next spot at 2nd base.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I do agree that Hornsby is better than both. But they may give Joe Morgan a run for his money at the next spot at 2nd base.

see i think Morgan should be compared with Hornsby... so again i disagree... at some point we have to look at time period and say the stats might not be telling us the full story...

also Morgan is one of the best baserunners in baseball history(sure we define baserunning as Stolen bases)

 

[calsnowskier]

see i think Morgan should be compared with Hornsby... so again i disagree... at some point we have to look at time period and say the stats might not be telling us the full story...

also Morgan is one of the best baserunners in baseball history(sure we define baserunning as Stolen bases)

Unfortunately, there is no stat that I am aware of outside of SB that addresses baserunning. But bringing up “legend” in that regard is fair.