Top 10 poll: #9 player ever

[Janus]

1) Babe Ruth (defeated Willie Mays 23-9)
2) Willie Mays (defeated Barry Bonds 26-11)
3) Ted Williams (defeated Barry Bonds 18-17)
4) Barry Bonds (defeated Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb 20-11-8)
5) Hank Aaron (defeated Ty Cobb 17-16)
6) Ty Cobb (defeated Lou Gehrig 24-9)
7) Lou Gehrig (defeated Walter Johnson 19-10)
8) Mickey Mantle (defeated Walter Johnson 17-12)

Who is the #9 player ever? Vote for your top 3. This poll will close Tuesday AM.

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Oh now you put Berra up there, cheap shot.
He probably wouldn't have beaten the the top 9 so I'll let ya slide.

 

[chappee11]

Sure. But don’t you think it is weird that we kind of punish the players we have seen. And we buy into every legend story of past players??

Exactly. Would vintage Walter Johnson outpitch Pedro Martinez in 2000? Didn’t guys like Johnson only throw fastballs anyway? Were breaking balls even a thing? His fastball probably topped out at 84MPH, too.

We definitely give too much credence to the “lore of yesteryear” with these guys. What would Nolan Ryan have looked like pitching in 1908? He probably would have rendered the roster of bricklayers and plumbers on the St. Louis Browns mostly defenseless.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Exactly. Would vintage Walter Johnson outpitch Pedro Martinez in 2000? Didn’t guys like Johnson only throw fastballs anyway? Were breaking balls even a thing? His fastball probably topped out at 84MPH, too.

We definitely give too much credence to the “lore of yesteryear” with these guys. What would Nolan Ryan have looked like pitching in 1908? He probably would have rendered the roster of bricklayers and plumbers on the St. Louis Browns mostly defenseless.

I don’t punish past players for the lack of science and training.

I do acknowledge the fact that yesteryear was more stars and scrubs. The average player has become significantly better. Which me not trust the adjusted stats that are intended to compare different times.

And it also tells me that some statistics are going to be exaggerated.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don’t punish players we’ve seen. I’m the one voting for Ohtani lol. Most of us don’t punish recent players if anything we downgrade the ones from the beginning like Wagner and Young

More accurately we identified the time period as flawed but buy into the legends of those time periods.(ironically we won’t do that about the steroid era)

Just look at how our community has been voting. Only bonds, most of us have seen. The rest if we have seen we saw them in the back half of their career or saw when we were too young to remember them being good.

 

[msgkings322]

More accurately we identified the time period as flawed but buy into the legends of those time periods.(ironically we won’t do that about the steroid era)

Just look at how our community has been voting. Only bonds, most of us have seen. The rest if we have seen we saw them in the back half of their career or saw when we were too young to remember them being good.

The others dominated more than modern players, Bonds excepted

But you do make good points. I may start putting modern players in after Johnson gets #9

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The others dominated more than modern players, Bonds excepted

Why should the elites of modern baseball be punished for the mediocrity of the non elites of yesteryear??

 

[msgkings322]

“Windows 98 does more things better.”

-@msgkings322, probably

You’re the one simping for the older software with fewer features

 

[msgkings322]

Why should the elites of modern baseball be punished for the mediocrity of the non elites of yesteryear??

Just added you make some good points and I will start giving moderns more votes besides Ohtani.

But there’s no way to “prove” this stuff. You make good arguments, others counter you with good arguments. The arguing is the fun part! And then the voting reveals the consensus formed by our biases and arguments.

 

[calsnowskier]

This is a fun exercise, and I will keep doing it as long as it is fun, but doing more than the ELITE elite of the elite gets very murky. Legend vs ability. Impact vs numbers. Era vs era. Cheating vs trying.

The elite will be the elite. They transcend these quibbles. But at some point, it is only quibbles. I fear we are approaching that area.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Am I the only one that

Just added you make some good points and I will start giving moderns more votes besides Ohtani.

But there’s no way to “prove” this stuff. You make good arguments, others counter you with good arguments. The arguing is the fun part! And then the voting reveals the consensus formed by our biases and arguments.

No there is no way to prove it. And it is more fun in a 1vs 1 comparison.

For example. Lou Gehrig vs Albert pujols is a fun 1vs 1 debate.

But when choosing from a list like we are nobody is going to nominate pujols as a top 10. But Gehrig will be.

Bonds vs Ruth is fun. But there is too many bonds haters to give that the discussion it needs.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Just added you make some good points and I will start giving moderns more votes besides Ohtani.

But there’s no way to “prove” this stuff. You make good arguments, others counter you with good arguments. The arguing is the fun part! And then the voting reveals the consensus formed by our biases and arguments.

Also. I do think it can be shown mathematically. I am a numbers person and believe everything can be shown and proven.

we just need to find better era adjustment stats than WAR, OPS+, ERA+ etc

 

[calsnowskier]

Also. I do think it can be shown mathematically. I am a numbers person and believe everything can be shown and proven.

we just need to find better era adjustment stats than WAR, OPS+, ERA+ etc

You can find a better number that works for you. But you will be adding subjective multipliers that don’t align with someone else’s measuring system.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

You can find a better number that works for you. But you will be adding subjective multipliers that don’t align with someone else’s measuring system.

Of course. And you are right, for the most part it is subjective.

But sometimes with the right statistics you can show people the importance of something.

For example, BA was always king. OBP showed how walks were an important and valuable stat.

so just because something looks like it is subjective, that doesn’t mean it is subjective.

Also, all the advanced metrics are subjective because it uses weights by the person who invented it. But we use their stats because we like the how it looks.

 

[msgkings322]

Also. I do think it can be shown mathematically. I am a numbers person and believe everything can be shown and proven.

we just need to find better era adjustment stats than WAR, OPS+, ERA+ etc

You’re entitled to that opinion but it’s not very accurate.

 

[calsnowskier]

Of course. And you are right, for the most part it is subjective.

But sometimes with the right statistics you can show people the importance of something.

For example, BA was always king. OBP showed how walks were an important and valuable stat.

so just because something looks like it is subjective, that doesn’t mean it is subjective.

And OPS double dips OBP, but as long as you understand that, it works.

 

[LHG]

Because nobody asked, here are the careers for each player that has been ranked already:
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1948-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)

As for overlap? Here is many of these players were active in the following time periods:
1876-1904 - 0
1905-1913 - 1
1914-1922 - 2
1923-1928 - 3
1929-1935 - 2
1936-1938 - 1
1939 - 2
1940-1947 - 1
1948-1953 - 2
1954-1960 - 3
1961-1973 - 2
1974-1976 - 1
1977-1985 - 0
1986-2007 - 1
2007-2024 - 0

Updating to include the most egregious overrated player on this list so far (until Ohtani makes the list):
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1948-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)

1876-1904 - 0
1905-1913 - 1
1914-1922 - 2
1923-1928 - 3
1929-1935 - 2
1936-1938 - 1
1939 - 2
1940-1947 - 1
1948-1950 - 2
1951-1953 - 3
1954-1960 - 4
1961-1968 - 3
1969-1973 - 2
1974-1976 - 1
1977-1985 - 0
1986-2007 - 1
2007-2024 - 0

 

[femurov]

It looks like the new controversial name on the list is Shohei. It looks like he has a core of staunch supporters who vote for him every time, but basically no one new is going his way.

I understand he is a unicorn (more so than Rickey). But his book just isn’t finished yet. Taking his story, as written, he just doesn’t belong in the conversation YET.

Current guys vs retired guys is always a big hurdle when you are discussing these things. I feel like a lot of people overrate the current players. Especially when you consider how much they can drop off after such a promising start. A lot of the what makes some of these retired players All Time Greats is the fact that they were dominant (or at least, played at a very high level) for so long. I feel like you have to treat it as if the current player is retiring right now and there is no "If they play for X amount more years..." and such.

Look at someone like Odell Beckham. If you were discussing where he ranks all time after his 3rd or 4th year, he would be way higher on most peoples' lists after winning rookie of the year and making a few pro bowls and all pro teams. But, then he hit a wall and has never played near that elite level again. That's why it is futile to talk about current players until they are almost done... Aaron Rodgers, Von Miller, Travis Kelce, etc.

 

[LHG]

I don't get the lack of love for Tris Speaker. He is not in my top 3, but those are Walter Johnson (who should have been ranked about 5 spots ago, IMHO), Cy Young (he may have pitched in a different era but was still head and shoulders above anyone else in his time) and Rogers Hornsby (the best hitter on the list). Right below Hornsby, and maybe just above Musial, should be Speaker. 134.9 career WAR (in 21 seasons, compared to Musial's 128.5 in 22 seasons), 158 OPS+ (just a hair below Musial's 158) and 62.7 WAR7 (just below Musial's 64.5). The two hitters are almost identical. I'd give Speaker a slight edge but he is getting no votes while Musial is gaining some significant helium.

 

[msgkings322]

I don't get the lack of love for Tris Speaker. He is not in my top 3, but those are Walter Johnson (who should have been ranked about 5 spots ago, IMHO), Cy Young (he may have pitched in a different era but was still head and shoulders above anyone else in his time) and Rogers Hornsby (the best hitter on the list). Right below Hornsby, and maybe just above Musial, should be Speaker. 134.9 career WAR (in 21 seasons, compared to Musial's 128.5 in 22 seasons), 158 OPS+ (just a hair below Musial's 158) and 62.7 WAR7 (just below Musial's 64.5). The two hitters are almost identical. I'd give Speaker a slight edge but he is getting no votes while Musial is gaining some significant helium.

Yeah it’s weird which names get more love than they should and which get less. Everyone has their own subjective opinion.

I think with Speaker and Hornsby and Young there’s era fatigue. People don’t want to keep voting for numbers on a page instead of people they have seen play or at least seen highlights of (or movies about like Mantle)

 

[calsnowskier]

Reminder that this one closes tomorrow AM.