Top 10 poll: #12 player ever

[calsnowskier]

Wagner (SS) 1898 - 1916 (3 top 10 MVP — only 3 seasons during his career with MVP voting)

131.0 WAR, 65.5 WAR7, (bolds) 2B - 7, 3B - 3, RBI - 4, SB - 5, OPS - 8

OPS+ buckets

200 - 1
180 - 2
160 - 7
140 - 3
120 - 3

Henderson (LF) 1980 - 2001 (1 MVP, 5 top 10 MVP, 1 GG, 10 ASG, 3 SS)

111.1, 57.6, R - 5, SB -12, BB - 4, OPS - 1, all time SB, all time R

OPS+ buckets

180 - 1
140 - 6
120 - 8

Schmidt (3B) 1973 - 1988 (3 MVP, 6 top 10 MVP, 10 GG, 12 ASG, 6 SS)

106.9, 58.9, R - 1, HR - 8, RBI - 4, BB - 4, OPS - 5, TB - 3

OPS+ buckets

180 - 1
160 - 2
140 - 9
120 - 1

 

[LHG]

Wagner (SS) 1898 - 1916 (3 top 10 MVP — only 3 seasons during his career with MVP voting)

131.0 WAR, 65.5 WAR7, (bolds) 2B - 7, 3B - 3, RBI - 4, SB - 5, OPS - 8

OPS+ buckets

200 - 1
180 - 2
160 - 7
140 - 3
120 - 3

Henderson (LF) 1980 - 2001 (1 MVP, 5 top 10 MVP, 1 GG, 10 ASG, 3 SS)

111.1, 57.6, R - 5, SB -12, BB - 4, OPS - 1, all time SB, all time R

OPS+ buckets

180 - 1
140 - 6
120 - 8

Schmidt (3B) 1973 - 1988 (3 MVP, 6 top 10 MVP, 10 GG, 12 ASG, 6 SS)

106.9, 58.9, R - 1, HR - 8, RBI - 4, BB - 4, OPS - 5, TB - 3

OPS+ buckets

180 - 1
160 - 2
140 - 9
120 - 1

Wagner clearly looks the best of the three based on the OPS+ seasons.

 

[Clayton]

over wagner is much closer... and i think he is...

i dont think he is over schmidt...

but i will also admit Wagner/speaker is where i draw my pre expansion line... where i need to put in modern day players...

if another round or 2 pass and we put in more modern day players and we have the same Henderson vs wagner question, i may change my opinion...

Honestly, I don't blame anyone for having a cutoff line around that period.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Honestly, I don't blame anyone for having a cutoff line around that period.

i just want to justify it though... Again... it is clear to me that there was a BA deflation after 1950... which is clearly going to affect OBP, OPS and OPS+... but without knowing the actual value, my cutoff line seems arbitrary...

 

[calsnowskier]

i just want to justify it though... Again... it is clear to me that there was a BA deflation after 1950... which is clearly going to affect OBP, OPS and OPS+... but without knowing the actual value, my cutoff line seems arbitrary...

It would fascinating to learn about the history of the ball that MLB uses. When did they introduce metrics that balls needed to meet to be used? When did they change from company A to company B? When did they change the thread type?

 

[broncosmitty]

It would fascinating to learn about the history of the ball that MLB uses. When did they introduce metrics that balls needed to meet to be used? When did they change from company A to company B? When did they change the thread type?

The game stays the same even as baseballs change | Baseball Hall of Fame

baseballhall.org

 

[broncosmitty]

There isn’t even an exact requirement for the ball.

There’s a quarter ounce and a quarter inch in diameter leeway.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It would fascinating to learn about the history of the ball that MLB uses. When did they introduce metrics that balls needed to meet to be used? When did they change from company A to company B? When did they change the thread type?

or even more importantly.. when the baseball measurements had to reach specific measurements...

i highly doubt the baseballs back then were consistently the same... not that i really think that matters to statistics that much... i guess maybe there would be games where people did not understand why there was specific actions happening that game... like maybe a game where everyone was hitting the ball hard... or the opposite, that there was an uncanny amount of mishits...

but i am sure that would always be put on the pitcher and hitter themselves...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

There isn’t even an exact requirement for the ball.

There’s a quarter ounce and a quarter inch in diameter leeway.

just imagine what that was like in yesteryear... before that leeway was even accepted...

 

[broncosmitty]

just imagine what that was like in yesteryear... before that leeway was even accepted...

I don’t know when the specifications were made. But they can tighten and loosen the ball a lot depending on what outcome they want.

To me the major thing is the laces. You raise em up even the slightest and K’s skyrocket.

Way back in the day guys, I’m sure, could do nasty things with scuffed up balls.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don’t know when the specifications were made. But they can tighten and loosen the ball a lot depending on what outcome they want.

To me the major thing is the laces. You raise em up even the slightest and K’s skyrocket.

Way back in the day guys, I’m sure, could do nasty things with scuffed up balls.

and how about for batters?? pine tar became illegal in 1983...

 

[calsnowskier]

I don’t know when the specifications were made. But they can tighten and loosen the ball a lot depending on what outcome they want.

To me the major thing is the laces. You raise em up even the slightest and K’s skyrocket.

Way back in the day guys, I’m sure, could do nasty things with scuffed up balls.

Especially seeing as they only used a few balls for the entire game, so the balls were REALLY scuffed.

Looking at era differences in numbers can be explained away by fucking with the ball. And when did the commish office start fucking with the ball? There were recent studies of balls used in recent years (foul balls and HR ball) that showed there were consistent variances between the balls from one year tothe next. The league offices are DEFINITELY utilizing fuckery.

 

[calsnowskier]

This is why I like looking at bolded numbers, accolades and + stats when comparing players of different eras.

 

[broncosmitty]

and how about for batters?? pine tar became illegal in 1983...

I have no idea how pine tar helps some one hit.

Like the George Brett homer deal, I don’t get it. It’s sticky, that shouldn’t be an aid to hitting the ball harder off the bat.

 

[broncosmitty]

Especially seeing as they only used a few balls for the entire game, so the balls were REALLY scuffed.

Looking at era differences in numbers can be explained away by fucking with the ball. And when did the commish office start fucking with the ball? There were recent studies of balls used in recent years (foul balls and HR ball) that showed there were consistent variances between the balls from one year tothe next. The league offices are DEFINITELY utilizing fuckery.

Looks like the AL started making moves with the ball in 1910. And then kept on going for their desired results.

The first 20 years of two Big Leagues seem like they would’ve been a little bit Wild West. As it wasn’t until after the BlackSox threw the WS that we saw a commissioner.

 

[calsnowskier]

I have no idea how pine tar helps some one hit.

Like the George Brett homer deal, I don’t get it. It’s sticky, that shouldn’t be an aid to hitting the ball harder off the bat.

I think it has something to do with having a stronger grip on the bat, reducing the “wobble” when contact is made.

I could be completely wrong about that, though.

 

[broncosmitty]

I think it has something to do with having a stronger grip on the bat, reducing the “wobble” when contact is made.

I could be completely wrong about that, though.

You might be right.

Cuz I sure don’t understand why there was a limit to how high the pine tar can go on a bat.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

This is why I like looking at bolded numbers, accolades and + stats when comparing players of different eras.

but bolded numbers, which i like too, is flawed too... especially when there was only 8 teams in a league until 1962...

i do look at it as well... but acknowledging that it is harder to have bolded numbers with more teams is pretty important... and explains why black ink and gray ink leader lists are very dominated by older players as well...

i have no proof to this statement... but i have also observed that the decline when players got older was much less by the yesteryear players... i can imagine why this would be true... as there are lots of factors that infer difficulty of play increased as science improved...

just like bolded numbers, there is another stat i like from baseball reference... its the SHARES stat... they do it for both WAR, and MVP it counts every time you were either BEST, top 5, or top 10 in WAR or MVP... and calculates it with weights for each category...

 

[LHG]

Looks like the AL started making moves with the ball in 1910. And then kept on going for their desired results.

The first 20 years of two Big Leagues seem like they would’ve been a little bit Wild West. As it wasn’t until after the BlackSox threw the WS that we saw a commissioner.

The role of the commissioner was to create MLB. Before that, there was major league baseball but no single governing body over the major leagues. They were essentially independent of each other. The league presidents were the "commissioners" of their leagues.

 

[LHG]

but bolded numbers, which i like too, is flawed too... especially when there was only 8 teams in a league until 1962...

i do look at it as well... but acknowledging that it is harder to have bolded numbers with more teams is pretty important... and explains why black ink and gray ink leader lists are very dominated by older players as well...

i have no proof to this statement... but i have also observed that the decline when players got older was much less by the yesteryear players... i can imagine why this would be true... as there are lots of factors that infer difficulty of play increased as science improved...

just like bolded numbers, there is another stat i like from baseball reference... its the SHARES stat... they do it for both WAR, and MVP it counts every time you were either BEST, top 5, or top 10 in WAR or MVP... and calculates it with weights for each category...

I think if you took a deep dive into the average age of an MLB player, you'll find that it increased into the later half of the 20th century. Most guys didn't play into their mid 30s back then. Only the really good ones did. Even then, some of them transitioned to managers and became very much part time players.