Top 10 poll: #12 player ever

[msgkings322]

And something I forgot when I made my post was pointing to Cy Young's legendary status. We all have our blind spots and our favorites, it is true. But Henderson's legend status giving him a boost while Young's legend status being dismissed almost out of hand and getting him bumped down proves the recency bias that I think is in place here. It’s not nearly as bad as, say, the ESPN lists that have been shared here. Nevertheless, the fact that we have a hard time recognizing that maybe the early years of baseball (i.e. the first 80 or so years. Or, more precisely, MLB in its 25th through 80th years) had more guys that were really good than we are comfortable with. We've seen the greats of our time. Surely, there were better than all those monster number posting guys of yesteryear, when there was no or limited TV coverage. I mean, we saw these guys play and feel that they surely are the best of the best.

I guess we differ on whether that’s a good thing. I see no reason why favoring the modern game is a problem, others may disagree, that’s part of the fun

We’re not being graded on this so if 100 years later more recent players get a little more shine, so much the better. I think the vast differences in the sport make that a reasonable position

 

[msgkings322]

You and I can never agree on anything and we agree on this, so I am thinking we must be right here. I truly believe that if we do this 10 years from now, Ohtani is #2 all-time to Ruth. We’ve never seen anything like this before…and we probably won’t again. A player who is the best hitter in the league and an elite SP at the same time comes along every 100 years, or so.

We agree on a lot of sports stuff. You’re like The Q who is an excellent sports poster and a lunatic on the PF lol

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Wondering when/if we get a 19th Century player other than Cy Young. The pitchers are all tainted, for lack of a better term. Different game. The 19th Century player with the highest WAR is Cap Anson. Even though I doubt he was the sole reason for the Color Line, he was a POS. Then you have to make a case for Roger Connor, King Kelly, Dan Brouthers, names who are murky even to hardcore fans like us.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Let me clarify, I am not trying to say you are knowingly bumping past Yankee greats higher than others on this board (at least the vocal ones) but you often do bring up guys (Mantle, ARod, Rivera and have been among the group pushing Henderson) before most others are thinking of them.

So now Henderson is a Yankee?? Kind of hard not to push a Yankee if so many of the greats have been Yankees.

The real question is have I been inconsistent in my claims. Have I not been pushing Schmidt and Ohtani?? Have I not pushed against my own Yankee Lou Gehrig.

Your claim is reactionary. But not based on anything in reality.

 

[LHG]

I do want to say that I really appreciate the good back and forth everyone is giving on these polls. It is educational, forced me to really look at some players I've not paid much attention to and set me straight on some players I thought I knew about, and it is also entertaining. I look forward to seeing what everyone is saying.

Now, obviously some of us are right and the rest of you are all wrong, but, hey we cannot all be perfect.










Please don't hurt me.

 

[LHG]

So now Henderson is a Yankee?? Kind of hard not to push a Yankee if so many of the greats have been Yankees.

The real question is have I been inconsistent in my claims. Have I not been pushing Schmidt and Ohtani?? Have I not pushed against my own Yankee Lou Gehrig.

Your claim is reactionary. But not based on anything in reality.

I didn't say that you are only pushing Yankees. What I'm trying to say is that the guys that you bring up that no one else (that I can remember) were talking about wore pinstripes. Not trying to say that you are pushing an agenda, either, to get all the Yankees at the top. However, I am willing to admit that this is a minor issue and we don't need to drag it out further. You seem to be a good dude and a passionate baseball fan.

But yeah, Henderson did have some of his prime years in New York.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I didn't say that you are only pushing Yankees. What I'm trying to say is that the guys that you bring up that no one else (that I can remember) were talking about wore pinstripes. Not trying to say that you are pushing an agenda, either, to get all the Yankees at the top. However, I am willing to admit that this is a minor issue and we don't need to drag it out further. You seem to be a good dude and a passionate baseball fan.

But yeah, Henderson did have some of his prime years in New York.

no doubt am I homer and have biases. But I don’t see anyone here not showing the same biases to their team. All we ask from all of us is to be consistent with your votes and arguments.

I brought up Rivera only saying he is the best closer. Is that not true?? Even non Yankee fans share that thought.

Not sure whether you know this but Yankee fans don’t exactly love arod or Clemens.

And i honestly don’t think pushing mantle was even a homer pick. Especially when I have been consistent on my reasons. And he fits my reasoning. You don’t think he is top 10. Fine.
But if you think that pick was far fetched then you’d have a problem with most top 10 lists we will find.

I look at your arguments. And I it always seems like you pick based on WAR. but you look at whole career over peak.

I will always be a peak over full career guy. It’s why they are considered so good.

 

[calsnowskier]

And i honestly don’t think pushing mantle was even a homer pick. Especially when I have been consistent on my reasons. And he fits my reasoning. You don’t think he is top 10. Fine.
But if you think that pick was far fetched then you’d have a problem with most top 10 lists we will find.

I tend go in to any “lists” understanding there will be a heavy northeast bias built in. Sox, Yanks and Phils typically get an annoying representation in everything sports.

 

[Clayton]

I am quite ignorant when it comes to Collins. He has strong WAR and WAR7 numbers, but when you look at him a bit closer, nothing about him really jumps out. Given the era where he played, I think that is a bad sign. My initial thought is that Morgan is better than him, even though his quick numbers may not be quite as good.

The gist I get is that the As built a superteam based on the infield, then broke it up. Probably the old A's player to pound the table for is Lefty Grove.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I tend go in to any “lists” understanding there will be a heavy northeast bias built in. Sox, Yanks and Phils typically get an annoying representation in everything sports.

There will always be an east coast bias in sports. And for obvious reasons too. As people are awake to watch it.

But if we are going to yell Yankee homer when players like Henderson get mentioned. Then the problem is not the east coast bias it’s the people compalining about it.

 

[calsnowskier]

The gist I get is that the As built a superteam based on the infield, then broke it up. Probably the old A's player to pound the table for is Lefty Grove.

I am not sure we need to look at a superteam them feel the need to pick a representative from that team. I think Ott may be a more appropriate contemporary representative for this project. After Wagner, of course.

But basically, I think we have squeezed the stone pretty dry from this era. We have taken the cream of the crop and it time to move along.

Again, after Wagner. He is a true great who is getting surprisingly little love at this spot.

 

[Clayton]

I am not sure we need to look at a superteam them feel the need to pick a representative from that team. I think Ott may be a more appropriate contemporary representative for this project. After Wagner, of course.

But basically, I think we have squeezed the stone pretty dry from this era. We have taken the cream of the crop and it time to move along.

Again, after Wagner. He is a true great who is getting surprisingly little love at this spot.

Lefty Grove did beat back the big bad Yankees of the era iirc. I'd at least consider him top 25. Collins might be fringe top 50 imo

 

[calsnowskier]

There will always be an east coast bias in sports. And for obvious reasons too. As people are awake to watch it.

But if we are going to yell Yankee homer when players like Henderson get mentioned. Then the problem is not the east coast bias it’s the people compalining about it.

I challenge you to find a region that Rickey DIDNT play for, at least for a year or two in his career. I don’t think he is getting much “Homer” love as much as “hero” love. Most of us grew up watching him play a very different style from everyone else (he had the power that Coleman never had, and he was just better at everything than Raines).

And he did it EVERYWHERE.

 

[calsnowskier]

Lefty Grove did beat back the big bad Yankees of the era iirc. I'd at least consider him top 25. Collins might be fringe top 50 imo

But would you put Grove above Clemens, Young, Maddux, Seaver, Gibson, etc, etc, etc?

 

[Clayton]

But would you put Grove above Clemens, Young, Maddux, Seaver, Gibson, etc, etc, etc?

He is probably just ahead of Gibson. Not sure exactly where that lands.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

The gist I get is that the As built a superteam based on the infield, then broke it up. Probably the old A's player to pound the table for is Lefty Grove.

Those A's of the late 20's-eraly 30's were epic, at last the lineup. Jimmie Foxx, Mickey Cochrane, Al Simmons all HOFers. Very good players, Jimmy Dykes, Max Bishop. Bing Miller, Mule Haas. Ran roughshod over the Yanks for three years, won 313 games and two WS. But only two great pitcher. Lefty Grove and George Earnshaw. Earnshaw drank himself out of baseball, the Yanks and Tigers caught up and Mack had to sell again

 

[calsnowskier]

He is probably just ahead of Gibson. Not sure exactly where that lands.

Imho, unless you can offer at least a casual defense that any pitcher is batter than Young, Clemens, etc, it just isn’t worth bringing them up. Bringing Roberto Alomar up in this discussion before Collins and Morgan (at least) is kind pointless. Bringing up Buster Posey before Johnny Bench is selected is just blowing smoke.

 

[Clayton]

Imho, unless you can offer at least a casual defense that any pitcher is batter than Young, Clemens, etc, it just isn’t worth bringing them up. Bringing Roberto Alomar up in this discussion before Collins and Morgan (at least) is kind pointless. Bringing up Buster Posey before Johnny Bench is selected is just blowing smoke.

I think its worth mentioning because in my estimation a lot of the great pitchers have similar value. Young has the accumulation and Clemens has the magical 2nd prime so they're outliers. After that...lots of hair splitting imo.

 

[LHG]

I think its worth mentioning because in my estimation a lot of the great pitchers have similar value. Young has the accumulation and Clemens has the magical 2nd prime so they're outliers. After that...lots of hair splitting imo.

Seasons played for the pitchers that have been named in these threads:
Roger Clemens - 24
Greg Maddux - 23
Randy Johnson - 22
Cy Young - 22
Tom Seaver - 20
Grover Alexander - 20
Pedro Martinez - 18
Christy Matthewson - 17
Lefty Grove - 17

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I challenge you to find a region that Rickey DIDNT play for, at least for a year or two in his career. I don’t think he is getting much “Homer” love as much as “hero” love. Most of us grew up watching him play a very different style from everyone else (he had the power that Coleman never had, and he was just better at everything than Raines).

And he did it EVERYWHERE.

That’s my point. I was being called out for being a Yankee homer because I was pushing Henderson.