Top 10 poll: #12 player ever

[calsnowskier]

Some similar players (position-wise)…

Wagner (SS) 1898 - 1916

131.0 WAR, 65.5 WAR7, (bolds) 2B - 7, 3B - 3, RBI - 4, SB - 5, OPS - 8

OPS+ buckets

200 - 1
180 - 2
160 - 7
140 - 3
120 - 3

Collins (2B) 1908 - 1927

124.3 WAR, 66.5 WAR7, (bolds) R - 3, SB - 4

OPS+ buckets

160 - 5
140 - 5
120 - 5

Morgan (2B) 1965 - 1984

100.6 WAR, 59.3 WAR7, (bolds) R - 1, 3B - 1, OPS - 2

OPS+ buckets

180 - 1
160 - 1
140 - 3
120 - 5

 

[msgkings322]

Expect Ruth had a career longer than seven years

Koufax didn't really...Ohtani is the legend we are watching in real time. It would be like picking Ruth as one of the all time greats in 1923.

I stand by my vote knowing he won't be anywhere near this list for most so what's the harm? I think when it's said and done he will be an all time great, so he already is to me. And the pitching hitting combo is unprecedented. Even Ruth didn't do both full time.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

To me this is part of the fun of this game, the emotional inconsistencies. It would be boring if we just voted in everyone by WAR or WAR7 or OPS+ or whatever other combination of stats, and were strictly consistent on all of our opinions. Not to mention we have good arguments about what different stats mean for different eras, positions, etc.

So we have all the numbers but then we are fans so subjective things like chappee saying Pedro is the best he ever saw, or cal giving Rickey unicorn points, or me doing the same with Ohtani. It's more than numbers and everyone values things differently so we argue about it and that's the fun part.

And that's what makes baseball so fun to discuss/argue over. You can't have these same discussions in football or basketball. Sammy Baugh was a legend but no sane person can say he was better than Brady or Mahomes. George Mikan was a dominant center but he's not in the same discussion with Shaq or Kareem. An argument over Gehrig and Pujols has merit even though Lou played his last game 60 years before Albert's 1st

 

[calsnowskier]

To me this is part of the fun of this game, the emotional inconsistencies. It would be boring if we just voted in everyone by WAR or WAR7 or OPS+ or whatever other combination of stats, and were strictly consistent on all of our opinions. Not to mention we have good arguments about what different stats mean for different eras, positions, etc.

So we have all the numbers but then we are fans so subjective things like chappee saying Pedro is the best he ever saw, or cal giving Rickey unicorn points, or me doing the same with Ohtani. It's more than numbers and everyone values things differently so we argue about it and that's the fun part.

That’s why I have said since the beginning of this (and I think I have maintained this attitude) that I don’t really care what the results are. This is a GREAT educational exercise. And our going at a snail’s pace is allowing us to really dig in deep on some of these debates and to challenge each other’s ideas and assumptions. I have been challenged a lot, and I have challenged a lot. And I hope no one has taken any of that personally. I don’t get the sense anyone has.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Koufax didn't really...Ohtani is the legend we are watching in real time. It would be like picking Ruth as one of the all time greats in 1923.

I stand by my vote knowing he won't be anywhere near this list for most so what's the harm? I think when it's said and done he will be an all time great, so he already is to me. And the pitching hitting combo is unprecedented. Even Ruth didn't do both full time.

Said before, Ohtani is an unfinished book. he could be top three or better when all is said and done. but, as of now, he's not top 10. If this was the year 2000, Junior Griffey would be a big name. He was great but unfortunately not top 10. I don't see Shohei pitching much longer then he becomes a very expensive DH

 

[Clayton]

Collins (2B) 1908 - 1927

124.3 WAR, 66.5 WAR7, (bolds) R - 3, SB - 4

OPS+ buckets

160 - 5
140 - 5
120 - 5

Sell me on Collins. Gist I've always gotten was that he was part of a superteam that won a lot and then dissolved. Lots of small ball and they saved the HRs for a different guy. They won a lot so maybe thats a big plus.

 

[msgkings322]

Hey can you guys help me find a list? Googling hasn't worked and I'm not so invested that I care to work more on it

Looking for a list of career OPS+ leaders...for pitchers only

I did find the all time list and interestingly Buster Posey has a slightly higher career OPS+ than Berra, Bench, and Mauer. So yeah he's a first ballot HOFer

 

[msgkings322]

Said before, Ohtani is an unfinished book. he could be top three or better when all is said and done. but, as of now, he's not top 10. If this was the year 2000, Junior Griffey would be a big name. He was great but unfortunately not top 10. I don't see Shohei pitching much longer then he becomes a very expensive DH

Babe Ruth was an unfinished book in 1923 also. And 'expensive' has nothing to do with this list. In Ohtani's case he may play the field once he stops pitching, he should anyway. He'd be a terrific RF with a cannon arm.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Babe Ruth was an unfinished book in 1923 also. And 'expensive' has nothing to do with this list. In Ohtani's case he may play the field once he stops pitching, he should anyway. He'd be a terrific RF with a cannon arm.

What about Dwight Gooden after his 7th season? Never seen a better pitcher in his prime than Doc. Does he deserve to be top 10

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Said before, Ohtani is an unfinished book. he could be top three or better when all is said and done. but, as of now, he's not top 10. If this was the year 2000, Junior Griffey would be a big name. He was great but unfortunately not top 10. I don't see Shohei pitching much longer then he becomes a very expensive DH

Same thing with judge. Only difference is that judge can be compared to players.

Ohtani as a unicorn will always be impossible to rank. Although, I guess it depends on how much he pitches from now on his career.

 

[calsnowskier]

Sell me on Collins. Gist I've always gotten was that he was part of a superteam that won a lot and then dissolved. Lots of small ball and they saved the HRs for a different guy. They won a lot so maybe thats a big plus.

I am quite ignorant when it comes to Collins. He has strong WAR and WAR7 numbers, but when you look at him a bit closer, nothing about him really jumps out. Given the era where he played, I think that is a bad sign. My initial thought is that Morgan is better than him, even though his quick numbers may not be quite as good.

 

[msgkings322]

What about Dwight Gooden after his 7th season? Never seen a better pitcher in his prime than Doc. Does he deserve to be top 10

We're well past the top 10, that's part of my point. I didn't nominate Ohtani until later, knowing he has no shot. He doesn't deserve to be top 10 or 20. I'm just voting based on emotions with him, I see all time greatness in real time with him. He does things no other player has ever done and is still doing them.

Also, there have been others with better primes than Doc (but he's up there)

 

[TheGoodMan19]

We're well past the top 10, that's part of my point. I didn't nominate Ohtani until later, knowing he has no shot. He doesn't deserve to be top 10 or 20. I'm just voting based on emotions with him, I see all time greatness in real time with him. He does things no other player has ever done and is still doing them.

Also, there have been others with better primes than Doc (but he's up there)

Granted, I never seen Koufax, Grove or Dean pitch, but Gooden in his first seven years, was terrifying. 20 years old with an uninhabitable fastball and the wicked 12-6 "Lord Charles" curve. We were watching this kid and thinking "he going to win 400 games and strike out 6000 before he's done". And might have if the Mets had paid more attention to his off field antics (Strawberry too).

 

[msgkings322]

Granted, I never seen Koufax, Grove or Dean pitch, but Gooden in his first seven years, was terrifying. 20 years old with an uninhabitable fastball and the wicked 12-6 "Lord Charles" curve. We were watching this kid and thinking "he going to win 400 games and strike out 6000 before he's done". And might have if the Mets had paid more attention to his off field antics (Strawberry too).

Doc really only had 2 great years, his ROY year and then the next year when he won the Cy was an all time great single year in pitching history. After that he was very good but not great for a few years and then done. Pedro and others had much stronger peaks. Not a great Ohtani comp as Ohtani has already had more great seasons

But that 1985 season...Doc had 12.2 WAR...highest single season WAR for ANY modern pitcher (last pitcher with a higher number was in 1913 (Walter Johnson)

Single-Season Leaders &amp Records for WAR for Pitchers | Baseball-Reference.com

Single-Season WAR Leaders:1.Pud Galvin+/20.5/1884/276, 2.Tim Keefe+/19.9/1883/273, 3.Old Hoss Radbourn+/19.2/1884/387, 4.Jim Devlin/17.7/1876/299, 5.John Clarkson+/16.7/1889/273, 6.Guy Hecker/15.5/1884/328, 7.Walter Johnson+/15.2/1913/144, 8.Charlie Buffinton/15.0/1884/368, 9.John

www.baseball-reference.com

Dwight Gooden Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Dwight Gooden. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

Pedro Martínez Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Pedro Martínez. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

 

[LHG]

i am sure i do have biases... we all do... but honestly, i dont think i have been blinded by it...

i have been clear throughout this, that i am bias against pre expansion, and especially pre colour barrier players...

i have also been clear throughout this that i care more about peak, and even BEST peak seasons than i am longevity

and i have been clear throughout this that i do take account post season...

Let me clarify, I am not trying to say you are knowingly bumping past Yankee greats higher than others on this board (at least the vocal ones) but you often do bring up guys (Mantle, ARod, Rivera and have been among the group pushing Henderson) before most others are thinking of them.

 

[LHG]

FYI…

I have just been liking these to this point, but this is a REALLY interesting breakdown that I really appreciate.

I started doing this when there was some disagreement on what era was being favored. I thought I'd just keep track so everyone could see where the players ranked were from so at least we were all on the same page.

 

[LHG]

Same. This is crazy to see. Bonds is the only player who started in MLB in the last SEVENTY years to be on the list, so far. The myth/legend of the MLB we never saw is soundly beating the MLB that we DID see.

Thank you. However, Aaron played within the last 70 years. The last 50 years, however, is only Bonds so far. I had hoped Clemens would be the next one but I fear that Henderson will somehow blind enough people to get in next.

 

[LHG]

To me this is part of the fun of this game, the emotional inconsistencies. It would be boring if we just voted in everyone by WAR or WAR7 or OPS+ or whatever other combination of stats, and were strictly consistent on all of our opinions. Not to mention we have good arguments about what different stats mean for different eras, positions, etc.

So we have all the numbers but then we are fans so subjective things like chappee saying Pedro is the best he ever saw, or cal giving Rickey unicorn points, or me doing the same with Ohtani. It's more than numbers and everyone values things differently so we argue about it and that's the fun part.

And something I forgot when I made my post was pointing to Cy Young's legendary status. We all have our blind spots and our favorites, it is true. But Henderson's legend status giving him a boost while Young's legend status being dismissed almost out of hand and getting him bumped down proves the recency bias that I think is in place here. Its not nearly as bad as, say, the ESPN lists that have been shared here. Nevertheless, the fact that we have a hard time recognizing that maybe the early years of baseball (i.e. the first 80 or so years. Or, more precisely, MLB in its 25th through 80th years) had more guys that were really good than we are comfortable with. We've seen the greats of our time. Surely, there were better than all those monster number posting guys of yesteryear, when there was no or limited TV coverage. I mean, we saw these guys play and feel that they surely are the best of the best.

 

[chappee11]

Koufax didn't really...Ohtani is the legend we are watching in real time. It would be like picking Ruth as one of the all time greats in 1923.

I stand by my vote knowing he won't be anywhere near this list for most so what's the harm? I think when it's said and done he will be an all time great, so he already is to me. And the pitching hitting combo is unprecedented. Even Ruth didn't do both full time.

You and I can never agree on anything and we agree on this, so I am thinking we must be right here. I truly believe that if we do this 10 years from now, Ohtani is #2 all-time to Ruth. We’ve never seen anything like this before…and we probably won’t again. A player who is the best hitter in the league and an elite SP at the same time comes along every 100 years, or so.

 

[chappee11]

Thank you. However, Aaron played within the last 70 years. The last 50 years, however, is only Bonds so far. I had hoped Clemens would be the next one but I fear that Henderson will somehow blind enough people to get in next.

Yes, I probably didn’t word it well, but I meant that a player who started his MLB career in the last 70 years. Bonds is it, so far.