Top 10 poll: #12 player ever

[calsnowskier]

As it sits now, 3 votes is the cutoff for advancement to the runoffs…

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But he isn’t ONLY his baserunning. He distracted the pitcher so the guy at bat got an advantage. There is no possible way something like that could ever be measured. But anyone who ever saw him play KNOWS that he did that.

i mean it can... i would like to know 2 stats... wish i could actually get an answer on these two stats, but dont know how to get them...

1. errors by defense while on base
2. OBP of batters while on base compared to those batters standard OBP with men on base

 

[LHG]

But he isn’t ONLY his baserunning. He distracted the pitcher so the guy at bat got an advantage. There is no possible way something like that could ever be measured. But anyone who ever saw him play KNOWS that he did that.

A guy regularly dancing between 1st and 2nd (or 2nd and 3rd) really puts him well above his numbers to get ranked this high?

cal, I almost always appreciate your perspective but this one, in my mind, discredits your complaint about Mantle being ranked as high as he is. His numbers seem closer to his ranking than Henderson to this level. Does Henderson's WAR7 really discredit the stolen bases and the intangible base dancing enough to completely overlook all the guys above him on that list I gave?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

A guy regularly dancing between 1st and 2nd (or 2nd and 3rd) really puts him well above his numbers to get ranked this high?

cal, I almost always appreciate your perspective but this one, in my mind, discredits your complaint about Mantle being ranked as high as he is. His numbers seem closer to his ranking than Henderson to this level. Does Henderson's WAR7 really discredit the stolen bases and the intangible base dancing enough to completely overlook all the guys above him on that list I gave?

but his OBP is pretty special...


again, he is the best lead off hitter of all time... THE BEST... he is THE BEST base runner of all time... how many people on the list are the best ever at anything??

hell, i rank Mariano Rivera higher than most do solely because he holds the title of BEING THE BEST....

 

[calsnowskier]

i mean it can... i would like to know 2 stats... wish i could actually get an answer on these two stats, but dont know how to get them...

1. errors by defense while on base
2. OBP of batters while on base compared to those batters standard OBP with men on base

I wish I had the raw data in a SQL DB. I could get for you in no time flat.

 

[Clayton]

We also still have 'best SS' 'best 3B' and 'best C' to maybe consider.

Best is a cutoff not really based on value, though. Its more based on competition. Scarcity. etc. There is certainly a metric that has Cy Young as the best player on the board.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

We also still have 'best SS' 'best 3B' and 'best C' to maybe consider.

Best is a cutoff not really based on value, though. Its more based on competition. Scarcity. etc. There is certainly a metric that has Cy Young as the best player on the board.

you are absolutely right... and i do rank Arod, Bench, and Schmidt well above most....

 

[LHG]

but his OBP is pretty special...


again, he is the best lead off hitter of all time... THE BEST... he is THE BEST base runner of all time... how many people on the list are the best ever at anything??

hell, i rank Mariano Rivera higher than most do solely because he holds the title of BEING THE BEST....

Being the best at one aspect, no matter how important, doesn't mean that gives extra credit. At least it shouldn't. OBP factors into OPS+. Its considered in WAR. I don't see his him being this good. I think its pretty clear that other players not ranked are better. It seems you all want to give him double points for OBP, compared to other players, and say "well, he probably rattled more pitchers because of his antics on base". How about Wagner sitting on the on deck circle, or Trout, or Speaker? Don't think that also had an impact on the pitcher?

I know that you've given some room for stories to impact rankings but I thought cal wasn't going that way. After all, isn't that why Oscar Charleston hasn't gotten any traction? If Henderson gets an extra boost for the legends that were built around his play, might as well just scrape the rankings we've already done and re vote based on the legends for all others. We just believe this legend so it will give Henderson a bump. Other legends, well, they are before our time so they must surely be exaggerated.

 

[LHG]

you are absolutely right... and i do rank Arod, Bench, and Schmidt well above most....

Arod as the best shortstop? He was a third baseman about as long as a shortstop. Why is it that just about all the guys you pull above where they probably should be all wear the NYY pinstripes?

 

[calsnowskier]

A guy regularly dancing between 1st and 2nd (or 2nd and 3rd) really puts him well above his numbers to get ranked this high?

cal, I almost always appreciate your perspective but this one, in my mind, discredits your complaint about Mantle being ranked as high as he is. His numbers seem closer to his ranking than Henderson to this level. Does Henderson's WAR7 really discredit the stolen bases and the intangible base dancing enough to completely overlook all the guys above him on that list I gave?

Fair critique. Henderson’s WAR number don’t compare with guys like Wagner or Speaker. Of course, I have Wagner as the clear #1 on the board right now, so I don’t need anything to defend there.

But Speaker and Collins can make solid arguments that may need to be listed above Henderson. Career WAR or WAR7 that are within 3 or 4 can essentially be considered the same, imho. Until you get to about 6 or 7 difference in WAR7 (essentially a full ”decent” season), I think the two players can leapfrog based on other factors.

But this indicated that Eddie Collins REALLY needs to be looked at closer than he is.

 

[chappee11]

I mix Pedro & Koufax in with the others you mentioned...

How do you calculate WAR7? Seven consecutive years? Was anyone better than Pedro from 1997-2003?

I said the same on Pedro. I don’t think anyone can match his stretch from 97-2003(during the height of the PED era-while clean!), but he doesn’t have longevity going for him. I just think he was the best pitcher that I ever saw. Period.

 

[Clayton]

Arod as the best shortstop? He was a third baseman about as long as a shortstop. Why is it that just about all the guys you pull above where they probably should be all wear the NYY pinstripes?

Wagner I think should earn best SS. Still, ARod being a great player that played SS is worth noting.

 

[LHG]

Wagner I think should earn best SS. Still, ARod being a great player that played SS is worth noting.

Oh, he should soon be considered but over some of the players that milk has mentioned seems interesting. I do think his Yankee fandom elevates Yankee players higher than they should be. Maybe not by a whole lot but still higher than they should be.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Arod as the best shortstop? He was a third baseman about as long as a shortstop. Why is it that just about all the guys you pull above where they probably should be all wear the NYY pinstripes?

i hope you are joking...

 

[calsnowskier]

I said the same on Pedro. I don’t think anyone can match his stretch from 97-2003(during the height of the PED era-while clean!), but he doesn’t have longevity going for him. I just think he was the best pitcher that I ever saw. Period.

Bullshit statement. You have no idea if he was clean or not. EVERYONE juiced…. Except MY guy.

 

[calsnowskier]

Wagner I think should earn best SS. Still, ARod being a great player that played SS is worth noting.

He didn’t play baseball.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Oh, he should soon be considered but over some of the players that milk has mentioned seems interesting. I do think his Yankee fandom elevates Yankee players higher than they should be. Maybe not by a whole lot but still higher than they should be.

i am sure i do have biases... we all do... but honestly, i dont think i have been blinded by it...

i have been clear throughout this, that i am bias against pre expansion, and especially pre colour barrier players...

i have also been clear throughout this that i care more about peak, and even BEST peak seasons than i am longevity

and i have been clear throughout this that i do take account post season...

 

[chappee11]

I am actually very shocked that Rickey is getting votes at this stage.... I'll take half of that list before I pick Henderson...

Same. I don’t see why Rickey is anywhere near the top 20. Greatest leadoff hitter of all-time, for sure, but that doesn’t make him the 2nd best outfielder of the last 50 years(which is how he is currently tracking). I just don’t see it that way at all. Is he getting a boost because he passed away last month? Perhaps.

 

[chappee11]

Bullshit statement. You have no idea if he was clean or not. EVERYONE juiced…. Except MY guy.

I can’t say conclusively, no, but he was never even suggested as a PED guy in any rumors, or anything. He never came up with Cousin Yuri or Balco or The Canseco Files. None of it(at least that I ever heard). I think he was clean. Hell, he probably would have been more durable with the PED’s.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I can’t say conclusively, no, but he was never even suggested as a PED guy in any rumors, or anything. He never came up with Cousin Yuri or Balco or The Canseco Files. None of it(at least that I ever heard). I think he was clean. Hell, he probably would have been more durable with the PED’s.

sure... but Don Zimmer would have probably died... so its a good thing that Pedro didnt do steroids...