Top 10 Poll #1: #1 Player Ever

[calsnowskier]

Joe D is just better, though.

And he is like 17th on the all time OF depth list. Fisk is top 2 or 3 on the all time catcher depth list.

 

[LHG]

And he is like 17th on the all time OF depth list. Fisk is top 2 or 3 on the all time catcher depth list.

I think that works only to a certain extent. If DiMaggio really is 17th all time on the OF list, but his numbers still put him as a higher OPS+, for example, than Fisk, then I think it is irrelevant if Fisk is top 2 or 3 (I haven't looked up to see how they compare in that regard, just posing it as an example).

 

[calsnowskier]

I think that works only to a certain extent. If DiMaggio really is 17th all time on the OF list, but his numbers still put him as a higher OPS+, for example, than Fisk, then I think it is irrelevant if Fisk is top 2 or 3 (I haven't looked up to see how they compare in that regard, just posing it as an example).

I believe Joe D has a better bat. But when you are comparing OF to C, OPS+ is well down the list in important statistics. Catcher is much like the QB of baseball. You need to look beyond the numbers.

We are not comparing 2 DHs. We are comparing an OFer to a C.

 

[DHoey]

Clemente was an oversight on this list. Thanks for bringing him up.

but this is not a poll for “favorite” player. This is a poll for “best” player.

Agreed. I would have a hard time saying Clemente was the best ever.

 

[calsnowskier]

Agreed. I would have a hard time saying Clemente was the best ever.

But I think he belongs on the list to vote for. He may start getting in the conversation in the lower part of this exercise.

 

[Clayton]

And he is like 17th on the all time OF depth list. Fisk is top 2 or 3 on the all time catcher depth list.

Oh, I couldn't care less about that.

Give me the guy that was in the mvp race almost every year

 

[calsnowskier]

Oh, I couldn't care less about that.

Give me the guy that was in the mvp race almost every year

Even on that scale, I think you would be hard pressed to squeeze Joe D onto a top 10 list.

 

[chappee11]

Given that Ohtani just won his 3rd MVP award today, I thought this was worth posting in here:

All three of Ohtani’s victories have been by a unanimous vote. He is the only player to have won the award unanimously more than once.

Ohtani is the 12th player to be named MVP at least three times. Bonds is the all-time record-holder with seven MVP Awards. Other three-time winners:

Stan Musial (1943, 1946, 1948),
Roy Campanella (1951, 1953, 1955),
Mike Schmidt (1980-81, 1986)
Albert Pujols (2005, 2008-09).
Jimmie Foxx (1932-33, 1938)
Joe DiMaggio (1939, 1941, 1947)
Yogi Berra (1951, 1954-55)
Mickey Mantle (1956-57, 1962)
Alex Rodriguez (2003, 2005, 2007)
Mike Trout (2014, 2016, 2019).

 

[Janus]

I believe Joe D has a better bat. But when you are comparing OF to C, OPS+ is well down the list in important statistics. Catcher is much like the QB of baseball. You need to look beyond the numbers.

We are not comparing 2 DHs. We are comparing an OFer to a C.

You're arguing catcher as QB like and the list is void of YOGI??? WTF? here's a guy with fabulous numbers as a catcher, not to mention rings to boot.

 

[calsnowskier]

You're arguing catcher as QB like and the list is void of YOGI??? WTF? here's a guy with fabulous numbers as a catcher, not to mention rings to boot.

I have no problem adding him to the discussion. And WAY before Joe D.

End of the day, though, I think Bench is really probably the only catcher who realistically has any chance at being on this top 10 list. And imho, Joe has no chance in hell.

 

[navamind]

the only thing about catchers is it just feels so hard to compare them to other positions, especially when defensive metrics have been such a gray area until the last decade or so. It's not until recently that we've been able to take pitch framing into account, and it's hard to get an idea of how much a catcher's game calling abilities and sequencing really account for their value, and catchers play less than other positions so it's harder for them to accumulate WAR. At least FanGraphs WAR seems to be a step closer to the right idea with framing metrics.

Anyway, I went Ruth. #2 I'd go with Barry.

 

[calsnowskier]

As far as this vote goes, I think it is a 3-man race between Ruth, Mays and Barry. I voted Mays, but I am 100% fine with any of the 3 taking the top spot.

In 10 or 15 years, maybe Ohtani will be in that discussion as well. But it wasn’t too long ago that Trout was being touted as the next GOAT, and while he is still probably an inner-circle HOFer, he really isn’t in THAT discussion anymore. And before Trout, Jr was the focus of that talk. And imho, Jr isn’t in that discussion either.

 

[Clayton]

I have no problem adding him to the discussion. And WAY before Joe D.

I don't know. Thats just a weird take.

Just a cursory glance at the NFL shows there is a massive difference between QB and Catcher. No single position in MLB is as important as the QB. Catcher is extremely important but I dont think that relevant at all in this type of discussion.

 

[calsnowskier]

I don't know. Thats just a weird take.

Just a cursory glance at the NFL shows there is a massive difference between QB and Catcher. No single position in MLB is as important as the QB. Catcher is extremely important but I dont think that relevant at all in this type of discussion.

I never intended to claim that catcher is EXACTLY like QB. Just that there are similarities. Catcher is definately a hugely different position from OF, at least. I think we can both agree with THAT take.

 

[Clayton]

I never intended to claim that catcher is EXACTLY like QB. Just that there are similarities. Catcher is definately a hugely different position from OF, at least. I think we can both agree with THAT take.

Sure but your emphasis on taking a player WAY before seems like I'm missing something here because most MLB analysts probably wouldn't.

 

[calsnowskier]

Sure but your emphasis on taking a player WAY before seems like I'm missing something here because most MLB analysts probably wouldn't.

Is defense part of the game? Or is hitting the only factor? If you value defense, than catcher, historically, is the most underrated position in baseball history, bar none. Catcher is a major grind on a player, so TYPICALLY they don’t hit as well as 1B or OFers (or DHs, but don’t get me started there). There is a reason no one has brought up Piazza in this discussion.

 

[calsnowskier]

FYI…

As the poll results sit right now, there will be a runoff between Ruth and Mays. Ruth would need a 50% +1 to avoid the runoff.

 

[calsnowskier]

This poll will close on Thursday AM. As it stands now, there will be a runoff between Ruth and Mays.

I think in the future, these polls should only be up for 3 or 4 days.

 

[LHG]

This poll will close on Thursday AM. As it stands now, there will be a runoff between Ruth and Mays.

I think in the future, these polls should only be up for 3 or 4 days.

Runoff because they are the top 2 vote getters?

Does whoever lose that race automatically get marked as the 2nd best in history or will you take that name and include all the others on this list for another poll?

 

[calsnowskier]

Runoff because they are the top 2 vote getters?

Does whoever lose that race automatically get marked as the 2nd best in history or will you take that name and include all the others on this list for another poll?

To avoid a runoff, someone needs to have 50+1.

We will still have a poll for #2 (and #3, and #4, and…)