To the LeBron haters

[msgkings322]

The reason I started this thread was to remind people of LeBron's actual individual stats. We are comparing individual players not teams. LeBron has been on some great teams and some good teams. What is undeniable is he has been an all time great player on all of those teams. He is easily a top 4 player of all time and arguably #2. This is not about his teams.

Karl Malone was a better player than Dennis Rodman. Dennis was on better teams. That's the point.

 

[msgkings322]

3 wins out of 8 attempts is 38% (37.5% if you want to be picky)

So is 38% better than 100%?

Is 8 more than 3? The guy with 8 got to attempt to win a ring a lot more than the other guy. I'd rather be that first guy.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Is 8 more than 3? The guy with 8 got to attempt to win a ring a lot more than the other guy. I'd rather be that first guy.

So finals trips are more important than wins in your opinion?

 

[msgkings322]

The reason I started this thread was to remind people of LeBron's actual individual stats. We are comparing individual players not teams. LeBron has been on some great teams and some good teams. What is undeniable is he has been an all time great player on all of those teams. He is easily a top 4 player of all time and arguably #2. This is not about his teams.

Karl Malone was a better player than Dennis Rodman. Dennis was on better teams. That's the point.

Care to elaborate what's incorrect in this post, @True Lakers Fan ?

 

[msgkings322]

So finals trips are more important than wins in your opinion?

Well in this example the 2 players EACH have 3 Finals wins. Plus the other guy got 5 more attempts to win that the first guy didn't even have a chance to make because his team wasn't good enough to get there.

So 3-0 vs 3-5 is really easy to say who's got the better (team) resume. What's harder is 3-0 vs 2-4.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Care to elaborate what's incorrect in this post, @True Lakers Fan ?

Not really, it's a tired old argument - I posted the stats to MJ and LJ in earlier post and the stats are mixed. Michael was better at some points and LeBron was better in rebounding and assists, but I still think Michael was a better leader and defensive player then LeBron. Top 5 player? Perhaps after his career is finished, but there is always a deflection with you guys that say titles don't matter and that Michael's fans are say that we are saying that's the only thing that matter. It's a tired old argument. Michael won three straight, retired from the NBA and came back and won 3 straight again. I am sorry but I think that was way more impressive then what Lebron has done and while I will admit that LeBron is in the top ten players, I can think of several players that are right there in that mixed and none of them are named Kobe Bryant. I would take Kareem or Magic Johnson in their prime over your boy any day of the week. Bill Russell, Larry Bird and there are some players that were really old school that I can't even remember. In recent history though I will consent to LeBron being the best since Michael Jordan though

 

[tlance]

3-0 is less impressive than 3-5?!?

Come on now, even you can't believe that!

Do you know who has the record for most 2nd place finishes in golf majors?

It is Jack Nicklaus with 19.

Is that a stain on his legacy too?

If you don't win, you don't win. Only a fool would argue that finishing runner up is somehow worse than finishing lower. It is an insane argument.

By the way, 3-0 would involve just as many losses as 3-5. MJ won 6 titles in 15 years. LeBron has won 3 in 14. Those are the numbers that matter.

 

[msgkings322]

Not really, it's a tired old argument - I posted the stats to MJ and LJ in earlier post and the stats are mixed. Michael was better at some points and LeBron was better in rebounding and assists, but I still think Michael was a better leader and defensive player then LeBron. Top 5 player? Perhaps after his career is finished, but there is always a deflection with you guys that say titles don't matter and that Michael's fans are say that we are saying that's the only thing that matter. It's a tired old argument. Michael won three straight, retired from the NBA and came back and won 3 straight again. I am sorry but I think that was way more impressive then what Lebron has done and while I will admit that LeBron is in the top ten players, I can think of several players that are right there in that mixed and none of them are named Kobe Bryant. I would take Kareem or Magic Johnson in their prime over your boy any day of the week. Bill Russell, Larry Bird and there are some players that were really old school that I can't even remember. In recent history though I will consent to LeBron being the best since Michael Jordan though

OK I get it. But LeBron is way better than Russell and Bird. Come on man.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

OK I get it. But LeBron is way better than Russell and Bird. Come on man.

Perhaps, but it was a different era and I think it's somewhat disrespectful to take one player out of 60 to 70 years of basketball and declare him to the be the best without some stats and valid reasons to back it up. At least come up with some meat and potatoes to go with your argument - I at least showed the stats and acknowledged that LeBron was consistent with the assists and rebounds and that was without even comparing the systems and what each player was asked to do. Many of those stats exists because of what the coach directed them to do. On that score - LeBron never really has had a real coach and had to coach himself, but give me some meat on defense, passing and actual reasons for your statements. So far the only thing I have heard in here consistently is the tired statement that LeBron was the GOAT - no reasons why - just the statement - that is so old, I start falling asleep when I hear it. Nothing personal - you're a decent poster most of the time, but come on and give us something better

 

[msgkings322]

Perhaps, but it was a different era and I think it's somewhat disrespectful to take one player out of 60 to 70 years of basketball and declare him to the be the best without some stats and valid reasons to back it up. At least come up with some meat and potatoes to go with your argument - I at least showed the stats and acknowledged that LeBron was consistent with the assists and rebounds and that was without even comparing the systems and what each player was asked to do. Many of those stats exists because of what the coach directed them to do. On that score - LeBron never really has had a real coach and had to coach himself, but give me some meat on defense, passing and actual reasons for your statements. So far the only thing I have heard in here consistently is the tired statement that LeBron was the GOAT - no reasons why - just the statement - that is so old, I start falling asleep when I hear it. Nothing personal - you're a decent poster most of the time, but come on and give us something better

Gee thanks, Ace. I'm a decent poster, usually!

Why are you so worked up? LeBron's stats are among the best in history. And I never said he was the GOAT so settle down. MJ still is. But LeBron is in that tier right behind with KAJ and Magic.

Also LeBron has been a phenomenal defender in his career. His signature play is that block of Iguodala that he flew across the court to make.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Gee thanks, Ace. I'm a decent poster, usually!

Why are you so worked up? LeBron's stats are among the best in history. And I never said he was the GOAT so settle down. MJ still is. But LeBron is in that tier right behind with KAJ and Magic.

Also LeBron has been a phenomenal defender in his career. His signature play is that block of Iguodala that he flew across the court to make.

Well at least you're not saying he is better than MJ, but I'm not worked up. I do think that this argument should be tabled for after LeBron has finished his career - If LeBron were to come to Los Angeles and win a few for the Lakers, except for @ChiefsLakers67 who would be sick to his stomach, the general opinions would change in my opinion. I do think those losses stain his record not because he lost, but because of how he lost - He gave up and quit.

 

[msgkings322]

Well at least you're not saying he is better than MJ, but I'm not worked up. I do think that this argument should be tabled for after LeBron has finished his career - If LeBron were to come to Los Angeles and win a few for the Lakers, except for @ChiefsLakers67 who would be sick to his stomach, the general opinions would change in my opinion. I do think those losses stain his record not because he lost, but because of how he lost - He gave up and quit.

You had me until the end, how did he quit? He should have been the MVP in 2015 in a series he LOST.

And he's not gonna win 'a few' titles with the Lakers but if he wins 1 or 2, being the only player to lead 3 teams to titles? He's 1b to Jordan's 1a.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

You had me until the end, how did he quit? He should have been the MVP in 2015 in a series he LOST.

And he's not gonna win 'a few' titles with the Lakers but if he wins 1 or 2, being the only player to lead 3 teams to titles? He's 1b to Jordan's 1a.

I think he gave up in a couple of those games, but I think Kobe Bryant gave up once or twice - when you're down like that and it's obvious that you have no chance to overcome a 15 point lead, I don't see how a person wouldn't. If Jordan, were to come to Los Angeles Lakers as fantasized by many Lakers fans not named @ChiefsLakers67 and won a couple of more titles, then yes it would seal his legacy for being next to MJ. He won't ever pass MJ though because MJ was set the bar and raised it in so many way

 

[larryjohn]

3-0 is less impressive than 3-5?!?
Come on now, even you can't believe that!

Let's say MJ took the Bulls to a couple of finals early in his career ... but they lost them both. (instead of going out in 1st or 2nd round) Would we think less of him ?

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Let's say MJ took the Bulls to a couple of finals early in his career ... but they lost them both. (instead of going out in 1st or 2nd round) Would we think less of him ?

That's not the reason fans think less of LeBron though - they think less of him because even after he assembled his own team and had the best team in the league - he didn't even win three in a row with a team he said would would win seven straight - I think many people hold his bragging against him

 

[msgkings322]

Let's say MJ took the Bulls to a couple of finals early in his career ... but they lost them both. (instead of going out in 1st or 2nd round) Would we think less of him ?

These knuckleheads would.

 

[tlance]

That's not the reason fans think less of LeBron though - they think less of him because even after he assembled his own team and had the best team in the league - he didn't even win three in a row with a team he said would would win seven straight - I think many people hold his bragging against him

The first year in Miami is the one legitimate stain on LEBron's resume. It was the one year that he lost with the clearly superior team and he didn't play well at all.

That said, he didn't "quit". The issue was that he was deferring too much to D Wade and he played passively.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Do you know who has the record for most 2nd place finishes in golf majors?

It is Jack Nicklaus with 19.

Is that a stain on his legacy too?

If you don't win, you don't win. Only a fool would argue that finishing runner up is somehow worse than finishing lower. It is an insane argument.

By the way, 3-0 would involve just as many losses as 3-5. MJ won 6 titles in 15 years. LeBron has won 3 in 14. Those are the numbers that matter.

You're comparing team sports with individual sports now? Two completely different things.

A loss is a loss. Doesn't matter if you come in 2nd place or dead last. Ask anyone that's ever played any competitive team sports if losing matters or not.

 

[tlance]

You're comparing team sports with individual sports now? Two completely different things.

A loss is a loss. Doesn't matter if you come in 2nd place or dead last. Ask anyone that's ever played any competitive team sports if losing matters or not.

You are right.

In An individual sport, an athletes finish is determined solely by their own performance relative to others in the field and a fair measure of individual greatness. In a team sport, individuals have to rely on others. So since Nicklaus' second place finishes are celebrated as an accomplishment in the golf world, LeBron's should be here.

Yes, a loss is a loss and losing sucks. But you keep saying 6-0 like Jordan never lost. He did. He lost 9 times. It just so happened that his team was vastly superior to their Finals completion every year but 1998. LeBron's team has only clearly been superior 2 times (1 of which he lost to the Mavericks).

Like I keep saying, Finals losses irrelevant. You win a ring, or you don't. Getting close is better than not getting close. But, at the end of the day the ONLY number that matters for LeBron is 3. Not 5.

 

[flyerhawk]

A loss is a loss. Doesn't matter if you come in 2nd place or dead last. Ask anyone that's ever played any competitive team sports if losing matters or not.

Right. So whether you lost in the finals or didn't make the playoffs it should be measured the exact same way.

So @msgkings322 point that it is Lebron's 3 titles compared to Jordan's 6 and the finals losses are completely irrelevant. Glad we agree.