To the LeBron haters

[tlance]

I agree it's not all about stats. Effort is a major part of it too - and to my point - at least Kobe was still defending in his 15th season. LBJ gave up defending consistently far before this season. And it's really bad this season. There have been plenty of times that I've seen him literally watch a guy run down the lane & dunk while he stood there in the lane.

You are probably right about the effort thing, but LeBron is much bigger and stronger, and has similar quickness. At his peak when the effort was there, he was better than Kobe because of his versatility and his length advantage.

Bottom line, once you got a certain age something has to give. LeBron is there now for sure, but Kobe was pretty bad defensively toward the end, and not great in Season 15. I am sure Kobe never gave up on plays Like LBJ does from time to time, but he also wasn't capable of locking down all stars in year 15. LeBron still can, although for limited stretches only now.

 

[Wamu]

I remember those days. My asthma is so bad these days - I couldn't toke even if I wanted to.

Sorry to hear about your asthma. Actually I very rarely smoke doobers anymore, that's just a great gif. I've been using a digital vaporizer for years now so I don't have to inhale like that anymore.

#cannabisconnoisseur (oh yeah)

 

[trojanfan12]

No. Because there are other metrics that come into play. Otherwise Bill Russell would be the GOAT or, if we were to discount his rings as being too long ago, Robert Horry would be the GOAT because he's got 7 rings. Or John Havlichek who has 8 rings. And neither of them lost a finals either.

Rings matter of course. But they aren't the end all be all.

I didn't say rings were the be all, end all. I have never said rings are the be all end all. Not one time. Not sure why you're having so much difficulty with that.

Rings are the tiebreaker. The stats, etc. among the all time greats are so close a tiebreaker is required.

If 6-7 and 6-0 mean the same thing to you, then 6-4 and 6-0 must also mean the same to you.

Kareem and MJ, as all time greats, require a tiebreaker to determine where to rank them Yet, they have the same number of rings.

So again, in order to be consistent, you should have Kareem and MJ as co-GOAT.

 

[trojanfan12]

As pointed out though, Kareen wasn't 'the guy' on all of those 6 teams championship teams...that's the big difference between his 6 rings and Jordan's. On the '88 championship team, Kareem was probably the 4th best player, and on the '87 team he was probably 3rd best on his team, he was either 2nd or 3rd best.

That's the difference between him and Jordan - Jordan was clearly his team's best player in all of his 6 winning finals...Kareem wasn't.

I actually agree with this to a point. However, if you were to look at Kareems career stats and MJ's career stats without knowing which player was which, Kareem actually has better overall stats. While he may not have been "the man" for his last couple of championships...he was important enough that the Lakers don't get those titles without him.

So, for myself, I look at that and I look at the number of rings each and I still see a tie. Then, I factor in that Kareem has 4 finals losses and put him behind MJ.

 

[flyerhawk]

I didn't say rings were the be all, end all. I have never said rings are the be all end all. Not one time. Not sure why you're having so much difficulty with that.

I didn't either. You tried to claim I did. Your fellow Lakers fans were arguing that 2-0 in the Finals was somehow better than 6-7 in the finals. There is no possible way you agree with that argument, given what I know of you.

Rings are the tiebreaker. The stats, etc. among the all time greats are so close a tiebreaker is required.

If 6-7 and 6-0 mean the same thing to you, then 6-4 and 6-0 must also mean the same to you.

Yes. 6-4 and 6-0 mean more or less the same to me.

Kareem and MJ, as all time greats, require a tiebreaker to determine where to rank them Yet, they have the same number of rings.

So again, in order to be consistent, you should have Kareem and MJ as co-GOAT.

I only saw Kareem play in the latter part of his career. I personally never thought he was the best player on the team during his Lakers stint. How can I say that the 2nd best player on the team could be a GOAT?

To be clear this is my opinion. I never saw Kareem in the 70s, except in Airplane and the Bruce Lee movie. But my memories of Kareem were that Magic was the best player on the team that won those championships.

I am totally fine with anyone who says that Kareem was a GOAT. Also fine with people that say that Wilt is a GOAT. This is where opinion comes in.

 

[trojanfan12]

I didn't either. You tried to claim I did.

Uh, no I didn't. Nice try. You said 6-0 and 6-7 mean the same to you. I simply pointed out that if that's true and that the all time greats need a tiebreaker, which is rings. If 6-0 means the same as 6-7, then 6-0 must also mean the same as 6-4.

Using that logic, the tie remains unbroken.

Therefore, to be consistent with your logic, you should have MJ and Kareem as co-GOATS.

Your fellow Lakers fans were arguing that 2-0 in the Finals was somehow better than 6-7 in the finals.

What my fellow Lakers fans were arguing, has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted.

I only saw Kareem play in the latter part of his career. I personally never thought he was the best player on the team during his Lakers stint. How can I say that the 2nd best player on the team could be a GOAT?

To be clear this is my opinion. I never saw Kareem in the 70s, except in Airplane and the Bruce Lee movie. But my memories of Kareem were that Magic was the best player on the team that won those championships.

I am totally fine with anyone who says that Kareem was a GOAT. Also fine with people that say that Wilt is a GOAT. This is where opinion comes in.

Have you looked at Kareems stats compared to MJ's? When you take into account everything from stats, to awards, etc. Kareem actually has as strong, if not a stronger, case than MJ.

Btw, I'm just busting your balls a little. I actually have Kareem as #2 all time as well. For awhile, I had him as #1. But, like it or not, I dropped him to #2 because he has 4 finals losses.

 

[flyerhawk]

Uh, no I didn't. Nice try. You said 6-0 and 6-7 mean the same to you. I simply pointed out that if that's true and that the all time greats need a tiebreaker, which is rings. If 6-0 means the same as 6-7, then 6-0 must also mean the same as 6-4.

Or you measure their impact on the game. Kareem didn't carry his team to greatness during the mid to late 70s. It wasn't until he had another guy that is arguably a GOAT on his team that he started winning championships.

What my fellow Lakers fans were arguing, has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted.

I know and I'm not accusing you of such a silly argument. But that was the argument we were having.

Have you looked at Kareems stats compared to MJ's? When you take into account everything from stats, to awards, etc. Kareem actually has as strong, if not a stronger, case than MJ.

There are many players that statically are in the discussion for GOAT. MJ gets the edge because he basically won every chance he got once he had another Hall of Famer on the squad. Kareem's teams didn't do a whole lot for a bunch of years, especially those pre-Magic Lakers teams. To be clear, I'm only arguing that in the context of all time greats. He was a great player throughout the time.

Btw, I'm just busting your balls a little. I actually have Kareem as #2 all time as well. For awhile, I had him as #1. But, like it or not, I dropped him to #2 because he has 4 finals losses.

To each their own. When it is all said and done I have a top 5 of players that I think all could be considered the GOAT. MJ, Kareem, Magic, Lebron, Wilt. If anyone wants to argue that one of those guys is the GOAT I am pretty cool with it. If someone argues someone outside of that group then I would have a problem with that.

 

[trojanfan12]

Or you measure their impact on the game. Kareem didn't carry his team to greatness during the mid to late 70s. It wasn't until he had another guy that is arguably a GOAT on his team that he started winning championships.

You sure about that? What about his title with Milwaukee?

To each their own. When it is all said and done I have a top 5 of players that I think all could be considered the GOAT. MJ, Kareem, Magic, Lebron, Wilt. If anyone wants to argue that one of those guys is the GOAT I am pretty cool with it. If someone argues someone outside of that group then I would have a problem with that.

Agree. End of the day, a great case can be made for all of those guys.

 

[flyerhawk]

You sure about that? What about his title with Milwaukee?

Well I did say mid to late 70s. That Bucks team had another pretty player in the name of Oscar Robertson. The year Robertson retired the Kareem led Bucks were a sub-.500 team.

 

[LAD]

Sorry to hear about your asthma. Actually I very rarely smoke doobers anymore, that's just a great gif. I've been using a digital vaporizer for years now so I don't have to inhale like that anymore.

#cannabisconnoisseur (oh yeah)

Thanks, and honestly I didn't really suffer from my asthma when I lived in the Bay which was why I was able to toke so much. It started to get really bad once I moved out to Sac - being in the valley has made a big difference.

 

[Wamu]

 

[Wamu]

 

[Wamu]

 

[Black Adam]

(lessee, rips up a handful of grass. wind seems to be blowing south by southeast)...

yup, STILL hate Leclown...

 

[Just Bring It]

Hail to the Queen!