Sorry Winnipeg... Hulsizer may have just saved the Phoenix Coyotes

[jstewismybastardson]

I agree that the league wouldn't be the same...but you'd think that the successes of many of the other markets would allow his ego to let a few of the others go down as failures. I think most everyone can agree that a league should not be financially supporting three of it's teams. That's just wrong.

fixed

 

[pixburgher66]

fixed

*brain fart*?

 

[wings-pens2166]

Listen, I understand there is a significant amount of Gary hate on these boards... and perhaps that has something to do with the abundance of Northerners on these boards... but you must admit if the NHL never expanded Southwards it would not be half the league it is today. That, along with the rule changes, which changed the game for the better IMO, are the cornerstones of Bettman's tenure.

I seem to be on the minority side on most arguments on this board, and I expect I am no different on this account.

honestly, I don't hate bettman. hey, as a pens fan, I realize he was a contributing factor to there being hockey in 'burgh right now. and I believe hockey is the south is definitely viable having lived in Raleigh for two years (including the Cup winning season).

but I think we can all agree Bettman is a very ego-driven guy and IMHO in this case his ego is hurting the league overall

 

[forty_three]

At the end of the day, lets not forget just a few years ago Pittsburgh was also considered a failing market. Markets can, and do, turn around.

No. No one with any horsepower updsairs considered Pittsburgh a failed market. The issue in Pittsburgh started horrendous ownership so bad that they eventually had to give part of their team to their star to not be in breach of contract.

Then, there was a political climate of selfish greed where two sides of the Casino debate held a desperately needed new arena up to serve their own cause.

There never was any question about the passion of the fanbase or strength of the game in Pittsburgh. To compare them to Phoenix is comparing Apples to Aircraft Carriers.

 

[forty_three]

Some more info on the latest Hulsizer proposal:

Glendale taxpayers have been given no protection against a future team bankruptcy. If the team goes bankrupt again, taxpayers will assume the full cost of bond repayment—this is on top of what taxpayers are already paying for the construction of Jobing.com Arena. Any restructured deal should legally protect taxpayers from liability for the bond repayment if the team fails again.

Arizona’s Constitution categorically prohibits the use of public debt to finance private businesses. Glendale justifies public borrowing on the grounds that the city is acquiring valuable consideration in the form of parking rights. However, the city may already own a significant portion of those rights, and the team does not presently have the legal right to sell the rest. If so, the city essentially is "selling" parking revenue rights to itself, which would be a clear violation of the Gift Clause. The new proposal does not address this.

The City of Glendale continues to ignore multiple requests from the Goldwater Institute to disclose public information related to the funding source of the $25 million and the documentation supporting the proposed arena management fees

As well, there's this little nugget:

The Arizona Republic reports that the bonds offered by the city of Glendale for Mr. Hulsizer will ultimately cost taxpayers $250-340 million. That figure includes the initial bond offering of $100 million the city plans to issue to help Mr. Hulsizer buy the team, as well as projected interest on that bond. Additionally the city is obligated to pay Mr. Hulsizer $97 million for arena management over 5 years.

Mr. Hulsizer apparently is promising only that revenues from all sources—such as arena events, rental payments, parking revenues—will total at least $75 million over 30 years and that he would make up any shortfall up to that amount. That would still leave taxpayers on the hook for as much as $362 million, which Mr. Hulsizer is not guaranteeing.

Man, those are some large numbers...

Hulsizer letter doesn't change Goldwater stance - Winnipeg Free Press

OMFG

 

[beantownmaniac]

lol...Do you happen to know when the NHL was at its height of popularity in the United States? It was back in 1994 when the Jets were in the league and all Phoenix had was the Suns and golf courses.

I don't think that's true Dash. I believe the diamondbacks and Cardinals were in Phoenix then.

 

[dash]

I don't think that's true Dash. I believe the diamondbacks and Cardinals were in Phoenix then.

Yeah, the Cardinals were there, my bad, but I don't think the Diamondbacks had arrived in the desert.

 

[Ties5o11]

No. No one with any horsepower updsairs considered Pittsburgh a failed market. The issue in Pittsburgh started horrendous ownership so bad that they eventually had to give part of their team to their star to not be in breach of contract.

Then, there was a political climate of selfish greed where two sides of the Casino debate held a desperately needed new arena up to serve their own cause.

There never was any question about the passion of the fanbase or strength of the game in Pittsburgh. To compare them to Phoenix is comparing Apples to Aircraft Carriers.

My point in bringing up Pittsburgh there was not to make an apples to apples comparison between markets. It was more of a throw away line showing that conditions in markets can rapidly change, as evidenced by a franchise that was once a financial liability and now is one of the stronger NHL markets.

Clearly the Pens have a larger base of fans, and clearly there were other conditions making them one of the lesser attended teams. But, I am noticing people seem to be willing to make excuses when some franchises don't show up to support their team, but are unwilling to acknowledge that there were some fairly horrendous conditions in Phoenix for most of their tenure.

Admitting to this does not mean you are saying Phoenix has as strong of a base as another market; say Pittsburgh.

 

[forty_three]

My point in bringing up Pittsburgh there was not to make an apples to apples comparison between markets. It was more of a throw away line showing that conditions in markets can rapidly change, as evidenced by a franchise that was once a financial liability and now is one of the stronger NHL markets.

Clearly the Pens have a larger base of fans, and clearly there were other conditions making them one of the lesser attended teams. But, I am noticing people seem to be willing to make excuses when some franchises don't show up to support their team, but are unwilling to acknowledge that there were some fairly horrendous conditions in Phoenix for most of their tenure.

Admitting to this does not mean you are saying Phoenix has as strong of a base as another market; say Pittsburgh.

And my point about Pittsburgh is nothing chaged or turned around. Everything that was happening was outside the control of the fans, but they still supported the team. That horrible, horrible arena was usually sold out. Fans travelled with the team to Philly, DC, New York, Buffalo. Heck, in the early 90's even playoff games in DC were 70% Pens fans.

It took Mario to grandstand and make a gesture about moving to get the incumbent politicians to say "Hey, I am going to get CRUCIFIED if I keep fucking around on this arena and they leave.". And why would they get crucified?

BECAUSE IT MATTERED TO EVERYONE.

It clearly does not matter to the general population in Phoenglensdale. And if it does, the potential of being stuck with a 350 million dollar bill will make them stop caring.

 

[beantownmaniac]

And will all you Canucks stop bashing this great American sport!! You're lucky we expanded and gave you a few teams!!

 

[Ties5o11]

2005-2006 NHL Attendance - National Hockey League - ESPN

Real strong year for the Pens. And look who they are only 2 spots ahead of! In fact, look at some of the teams the Yotes beat out that year: Blackhawks, Islanders, Devils, Capitals, Blues!

If you want to make a case for moving the Devils or Islanders, I am all ears.

Give Phoenix a chance with good conditions... and if they blow it in a few years, move them.

 

[Ties5o11]

BECAUSE IT MATTERED TO EVERYONE.

2003-2004 NHL Attendance - National Hockey League - ESPN

 

[BlueandWhiteForever]

Give Phoenix a chance with good conditions... and if they blow it in a few years, move them.

They have had 16 years of chances.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

SJS539 the market has failed miserably for over 15 years now and the teams commercial endorcements, the bread and butter of a teams financial bottom line, have decreased dramatically over those 15 years. There has been little to no growth in recreational hockey programs in and around the area. Those are not good signs for the future of the market.

Hulsizer himself said right after the BOG approved him for ownership that he expects it to take close to 15-20 years before the team will come close to just breaking even. Do you really think it's a wise choice for the league to support a team that's going to take $30m+ average losses over that time? Especially when there is a market ready and willing that can turn this years $45m in losses by the Yotes into a $20-$30m revenue profit in just a few short seasons.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

2005-2006 NHL Attendance - National Hockey League - ESPN

Real strong year for the Pens. And look who they are only 2 spots ahead of! In fact, look at some of the teams the Yotes beat out that year: Blackhawks, Islanders, Devils, Capitals, Blues!

If you want to make a case for moving the Devils or Islanders, I am all ears.

Give Phoenix a chance with good conditions... and if they blow it in a few years, move them.

Attendance is a huge issue for sure. Couple it with the fact that the Coyotes have been available for sale for the last year plus with no local suitors and things look even worse.

The fans AND the local business community view the Coyotes and obviously the NHL as a poor choice of use for their dollars.

For some strange reason the NHL (under current leadership) is being creepily loyal to a fanbase and commerce sector that has essential hung hockey out to dry.

 

[forty_three]

They have had 16 years of chances.

Damn this argument about Phoenix. It is making me rep a Leafus fan!

 

[BlueandWhiteForever]

Damn this argument about Phoenix. It is making me rep a Leafus fan!

 

[dash]

Coyotes win again last night and have pretty much locked up a playoff spot (barring an epic collapse). Yet they still can't even draw 11,000 people to the game (attendance was 10,977).

 

[Eddie_Shack]

Coyotes win again last night and have pretty much locked up a playoff spot (barring an epic collapse). Yet they still can't even draw 11,000 people to the game (attendance was 10,977).

On the plus side, they still haven't been topped by Hershey, Manitoba, Providence, Chicago, or Grand Rapids in the A....

 

[jstewismybastardson]

Coyotes win again last night and have pretty much locked up a playoff spot (barring an epic collapse). Yet they still can't even draw 11,000 people to the game (attendance was 10,977).

did you guys see the Chicago game highlights from the weekend?

if the Coyotes end up staying in Glendale maybe the NHL can schedule them to play 13 home games against the Blackhawks during the month of March when all those cubs and white sox fans take over the area ... probably doable in Garys world