Next year - Offseason Discussion

[rares]

Unfortunately, his fairly steady play in the PO's will likely raise his value. I hope we have 6 or 7 better options than him.

Highly unlikely with the crop of FAs out there from what we've seen, IMO...

But I do hope you're right and that I'm wrong...

 

[Cbrower91]

Pavs is a winner in the PO's despite the latest slump. No way you trade the guy - he's golden with game winning shots.

well if the games became a 60 minute shootout format, then you keep him. he just doesn't have the quickness or speed to keep up anymore

 

[sjrules99]

Pavs is a very solid 2nd line center and support player and you definitely dont trade him for nothing. However, I am not sure he is a guy who can build a championship team around. his stock is extremely high right now. he is signed for several years at a very low 4M per given his regular season and PO performances. He adds a ton to the team in faceoffs, PP, PK, and all the little facets of the game. Losing him would hurt...

BUT, if he is the cornerstone of a deal to bring in a #1 defenseman, then you gotta pull the trigger. If it lands a guy like weber, dougie would have to go for it. if that deal isnt there, then dougie will surely keep him.

As for wallin, I could see dougie signing him for 1M or less, but I just cant see him signing again for more. he averaged only 16 mins/game, which is about righ for a 5th or even 6th defenseman. I cant see dougie throwing 2M plus to a guy like that. last year, he was injured in the PO's, so dougie gave him the 1 yr deal to see how he works healthy. Now, I just cant see dougie continuing with him. God I sure hope not (except for 600k as a #7 or 8 dman. he's fine in that role.)

 

[rares]

As for wallin, I could see dougie signing him for 1M or less, but I just cant see him signing again for more. he averaged only 16 mins/game, which is about righ for a 5th or even 6th defenseman. I cant see dougie throwing 2M plus to a guy like that. last year, he was injured in the PO's, so dougie gave him the 1 yr deal to see how he works healthy. Now, I just cant see dougie continuing with him. God I sure hope not (except for 600k as a #7 or 8 dman. he's fine in that role.)

LOL! I can!

C'mon dude... this is Dougie Fuckin' Wilson we are talking about... you should know better by now.

 

[SJVP408]

Pavs is a very solid 2nd line center and support player and you definitely dont trade him for nothing. However, I am not sure he is a guy who can build a championship team around. his stock is extremely high right now. he is signed for several years at a very low 4M per given his regular season and PO performances. He adds a ton to the team in faceoffs, PP, PK, and all the little facets of the game. Losing him would hurt...

BUT, if he is the cornerstone of a deal to bring in a #1 defenseman, then you gotta pull the trigger. If it lands a guy like weber, dougie would have to go for it. if that deal isnt there, then dougie will surely keep him.
)

Right on. Trade Pavs if the net result is a big upgrade in defense. There needs to be a reallocation of the cap space being spent, take from the forwards and give to the defense. Pavs is a good player, no doubt, but you can't trade average platers and expect a big return. Pavs will make any trade package a lot more attractive to a GM.

 

[caliraftdude]

I'd like to keep Pavs as I think that 3rd line looked pretty good until it got outmatched in the speed category - and even then it only looked suspect in the defensive zone. What we needed there was some depth where we could get some speed on that line and force a strategic change on VAN. We have something like 11 centers on the team and no one we can put in there to speed up the line? If that's the case, then we need to move him to get the right pieces.

Line 4 only looked good those last two games and I say that sparingly because for the rest of the POs their only purpose was to chase the opposition in our zone and take unnecessary penalties. McGinn and Desjardins look like they can step in and that other kid Ferriero didn't look too bad but I think we tried this 3 rookies on the 4th line trick once and it didn't pan out too well.

Lastly - what we **really** need to do is to see how the other teams in the west realign and adjust themselves. We cannot "build for last year" which is what we seem to do a lot (IE... why did all the defensive talent go to VAN? They got the message... why didn't Doug?).

 

[caliraftdude]

As for wallin, I could see dougie signing him for 1M or less, but I just cant see him signing again for more.

Yeah - they only thing I want to see Wallin do in a Sharks uniform is mix the Gatorade....

But we all know where thats going right?

 

[Ray_Dogg]

Andy Greene and Hejda are UFAs as well.

 

[sjrules99]

I'd like to keep Pavs as I think that 3rd line looked pretty good until it got outmatched in the speed category - and even then it only looked suspect in the defensive zone. What we needed there was some depth where we could get some speed on that line and force a strategic change on VAN. We have something like 11 centers on the team and no one we can put in there to speed up the line? If that's the case, then we need to move him to get the right pieces.

Line 4 only looked good those last two games and I say that sparingly because for the rest of the POs their only purpose was to chase the opposition in our zone and take unnecessary penalties. McGinn and Desjardins look like they can step in and that other kid Ferriero didn't look too bad but I think we tried this 3 rookies on the 4th line trick once and it didn't pan out too well.

Lastly - what we **really** need to do is to see how the other teams in the west realign and adjust themselves. We cannot "build for last year" which is what we seem to do a lot (IE... why did all the defensive talent go to VAN? They got the message... why didn't Doug?).

the only real UFA that went to vancouver was hamhuis. They got ballard by trade (which I bet they are regretting despite the success), ehrhoff by trade (one of dougie's largest mistakes... not the trade but hte nothing they got for him), and the rest were basically home grown in salo, edler, bieksa.

That said, dougie fucked up last offseason horribly and no matter what the rest of the west does, he must resign white to a reasonable deal (3 yrs, 10M or something like that) and trade/sign another top 2 or 3 dman. If they can do that, they should be in really good shape. of course, just resigning white and then getting the dman midseason by trade is OK too. The only thing he cant do is continue needing multiple top 4 dmen like this past year.

 

[Ray_Dogg]

They need to have the team before the trade deadline. This way we won't have to go all out to scratch and claw late in the season for a playoff spot like we did this year. Wilson talked about that playing a role with our injuries and being drained for the playoffs. (teh blog)

 

[sjrules99]

They need to have the team before the trade deadline. This way we won't have to go all out to scratch and claw late in the season for a playoff spot like we did this year. Wilson talked about that playing a role with our injuries and being drained for the playoffs. (teh blog)

I dont think they actually have to be complete by the start of training camp. That would certainly be preferable but if the deals arent there, then they arent there. You have to be patient. if pitkanen signs for 6M somewhere, I wouldnt do it. Same goes for any other free agent. Or if teams ask for too much in trade then dougie shouldn't throw away the good guys and create a major hole to fill another.

Mid year, every year, teams struggle and become sellers (or buyers). needs become clear, injuries create needs, and deals become available. I think that if white is resigned, the progression of demers and cooch, and most importantly, the solidifying of the goaltending should keep the sharks from finding themselves 10th in the conference halfway through the year. I strongly doubt that will happen again. As such, if they have a better first half (as can certainly be expected), then they will be in a good position to deal for one top defenseman that can be difference midway through the year.

obviously, like all of us, I hope dougie gets it done in the offseason, but at the very least he has to keep his options open and not close the door by throwing cap space at losers again (6M+ on huskins, wallin, and niity = BAAADDD). if we start the year with 3 or 4M in space and braun in the top 6, I'm OK with that as long as the intention is to fill the hole midway.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

I dont think they actually have to be complete by the start of training camp. That would certainly be preferable but if the deals arent there, then they arent there. You have to be patient. if pitkanen signs for 6M somewhere, I wouldnt do it. Same goes for any other free agent. Or if teams ask for too much in trade then dougie shouldn't throw away the good guys and create a major hole to fill another.

Mid year, every year, teams struggle and become sellers (or buyers). needs become clear, injuries create needs, and deals become available. I think that if white is resigned, the progression of demers and cooch, and most importantly, the solidifying of the goaltending should keep the sharks from finding themselves 10th in the conference halfway through the year. I strongly doubt that will happen again. As such, if they have a better first half (as can certainly be expected), then they will be in a good position to deal for one top defenseman that can be difference midway through the year.

obviously, like all of us, I hope dougie gets it done in the offseason, but at the very least he has to keep his options open and not close the door by throwing cap space at losers again (6M+ on huskins, wallin, and niity = BAAADDD). if we start the year with 3 or 4M in space and braun in the top 6, I'm OK with that as long as the intention is to fill the hole midway.

The biggest reason the Sharks struggled early on in the season is because Wilson sat on his thumbs and took a wait and see approach when it came to his forwards and defensemen. If he wants this team to have a better chance next year and not struggle throughout the season he needs to be proactive this offseason. He needs to take a page from Yzerman and Gillis and make shit happen. Weather it's via trade or UFA it doesn't matter but he can't keep dragging his feet in the offseason.

 

[Cbrower91]

the only real UFA that went to vancouver was hamhuis. They got ballard by trade (which I bet they are regretting despite the success), ehrhoff by trade (one of dougie's largest mistakes... not the trade but hte nothing they got for him), and the rest were basically home grown in salo, edler, bieksa.

That said, dougie fucked up last offseason horribly and no matter what the rest of the west does, he must resign white to a reasonable deal (3 yrs, 10M or something like that) and trade/sign another top 2 or 3 dman. If they can do that, they should be in really good shape. of course, just resigning white and then getting the dman midseason by trade is OK too. The only thing he cant do is continue needing multiple top 4 dmen like this past year.

I'm pretty sure Sami Salo played for Ottawa before coming to vancouver in a trade i think for Jarkko Ruttu or maybe it was a crappy goalie cant remember all the details.

Only home grown guys are ButtSexa and Edler. And The Erohoff trade was horrendous and unnecassary, they wouldnt be having the problems they are now with the blue line had Doug kept him. Boyle,Erhoff,Vlasic,Murray,Demers and White. How sick would that of looked going into the playoffs?

 

[filosofy29]

I'm pretty sure Sami Salo played for Ottawa before coming to vancouver in a trade i think for Jarkko Ruttu or maybe it was a crappy goalie cant remember all the details.

Only home grown guys are ButtSexa and Edler. And The Erohoff trade was horrendous and unnecassary, they wouldnt be having the problems they are now with the blue line had Doug kept him. Boyle,Erhoff,Vlasic,Murray,Demers and White. How sick would that of looked going into the playoffs?

Salo did play for Ottawa.

Ehrhoff trade was horrible. Can't deny that one. Boyle-Murray, Vlasic-Demers and Ehrhoff-White would have been an awesome playoff defense. That said, who knows if Demers develops as good as he has if Ehrhoff is here, Who knows if Dougie trades for White if we have Ehrhoff, etc. Can't play the hindsight 20-20 game here I don't think.

 

[MrChangoT97]

Salo did play for Ottawa.

Ehrhoff trade was horrible. Can't deny that one. Boyle-Murray, Vlasic-Demers and Ehrhoff-White would have been an awesome playoff defense. That said, who knows if Demers develops as good as he has if Ehrhoff is here, Who knows if Dougie trades for White if we have Ehrhoff, etc. Can't play the hindsight 20-20 game here I don't think.

I think if the Sharks kept Ehroff, then there would be no reason for trading for White.

 

[caliraftdude]

They got ballard by trade (which I bet they are regretting despite the success), ehrhoff by trade (one of dougie's largest mistakes...

Id take Ballard and Errhoff over Huskins and Wallin all day long...

That said, dougie fucked up last offseason horribly and no matter what the rest of the west does, he must resign white to a reasonable deal (3 yrs, 10M or something like that) and trade/sign another top 2 or 3 dman.

Let me clarify - He absolutely needs to sign White and some better D help, this will depend on our shopping partners and young guys as to what we can do...

That being said, if Byfuglien were to go to DET (an example...) we may want to focus on at least one large ass-kicking dman instead of a bunch of speedy guys that wont be able to move any of the large-assed DET forwards out of our crease. Just an example..

I also dont think we are just a couple of d-men from being 'well off'. We still have some problems to address on our 3rd and 4th line. I think we were better than last year, but hardly in a comfortable place.

 

[sjrules99]

The biggest reason the Sharks struggled early on in the season is because Wilson sat on his thumbs and took a wait and see approach when it came to his forwards and defensemen. If he wants this team to have a better chance next year and not struggle throughout the season he needs to be proactive this offseason. He needs to take a page from Yzerman and Gillis and make shit happen. Weather it's via trade or UFA it doesn't matter but he can't keep dragging his feet in the offseason.

Early in the year last year, the sharks needed not 1 top pairing defenseman, but arguably 2 or 3. Demers didnt have so much as 1 complete year under his belt and white was not on the radar screen. the sharks top 6 included huskins, wallin, murray, and vlasic at the start of the year, with a still basically rookie demers (braun too hadnt emerged yet). That's why when they acquired white, they got a lot better, but still not nearly good enough and the D was still suspect.

This year, if all dougie does is resign white (which needs to be done) and let huskins and wallin walk, then the top 6 will be boyle, demers, white, vlasic, murray, braun. Obviously, it's still not good enough, but that top 6 only needs one player to make it an SC caliber D core.

There are a fair number of guys who are slated to be UFA's after next season (these would be the ones like white who might easily be available for picks/prospects): liles, jackman, burns, suter, coburn, kronwall, corvo, gleason, not to mention all of the RFA's and signed guys who might still be available. If they resign white, and start with the top 6 I gave above, they should be in good shape. Then, midway through, they add one legit top pairing guy, and the defense would be pretty well set.

 

[sjrules99]

Salo did play for Ottawa.

Ehrhoff trade was horrible. Can't deny that one. Boyle-Murray, Vlasic-Demers and Ehrhoff-White would have been an awesome playoff defense. That said, who knows if Demers develops as good as he has if Ehrhoff is here, Who knows if Dougie trades for White if we have Ehrhoff, etc. Can't play the hindsight 20-20 game here I don't think.

My bad, salo isnt homegrown, but he has been with the nucks for a while (now 6 years). nevertheless edler and bieksa are certainly 2 of their top 3 D and are homegrown.

As for ehrhoff, I still think he is vastly overrated. he still cant hit the net, and you remember all those fanned shots he flubbed earlier in the series? he is a solid #4 dman, but nothing more. The sharks were beat more by bieksa, salo, and hamhuis (and to a lesser extent, edler) than by ehrhoff. I dont think having ehrhoff would have a lick of difference. The only goof there wasnt trading him, but getting nothing in return.

 

[sjrules99]

Id take Ballard and Errhoff over Huskins and Wallin all day long...



Let me clarify - He absolutely needs to sign White and some better D help, this will depend on our shopping partners and young guys as to what we can do...

That being said, if Byfuglien were to go to DET (an example...) we may want to focus on at least one large ass-kicking dman instead of a bunch of speedy guys that wont be able to move any of the large-assed DET forwards out of our crease. Just an example..

I also dont think we are just a couple of d-men from being 'well off'. We still have some problems to address on our 3rd and 4th line. I think we were better than last year, but hardly in a comfortable place.

I understand the concept of matching up with specific teams, but the truth is that the west has so many legit contenders that it's impossible to cater a team to match up with all of them. If you match byfuglien in DET, say, then what about chicago? or vancouver? or anaheim? That seems to me to be the problem of looking for a specific kind of guy to match a specific team.

As for the 3rd and 4th lines, you are right that there is work to be done there. That said, most teams pretty much shorten the bench in the PO's, so the 4th line is not all that crucial, I think. That said, the 3rd line needs help:

step 1. get rid of mitchell. he had a little flash in the pan for 10 games or so, but he was bad in the PO's, and he clearly looks like a minor leaguer to me. His 1.4M salary can be better used elsewhere.

step 2. Adding depth 3rd liners at the deadline is usually pretty easy, and its impossible to know what the sharks prospect development will be like. There are at least a half dozen guys who could pick up their game to become legit 3rd liners and if they keep pavs and wellwood, then they really only need one guy to step up onto that wing to make that a strong line.

with the current top 8 (assuming wellwood and seto are resigned) of jumbo, gutless (haha, sorry couldnt help myself), heater, clowe, couture, seto, pavs, and wellwood, the forward lineup is pretty stacked. if the D were improved somehow without hurting that depth, then i dont think the lack of a 4th line would be the difference maker.

 

[sjrules99]

lastly, the sharks could have the cap space to add a pretty big salary on D without hurting the team basically at all.

If the cap goes up to 62M: sharks would have 10M in space with 14 players signed...

1. somehow get rid of mitchell and niity or bury them in the A --> 13.5M in space, 12 players signed.
2. resign seto at 2.2M, wellwood at 1M, white at 3.3M. --> 7M left with 15 players signed.
3. bring up stalock or griess (resign him for 600k)--> 6.4M left for 16 players.
4. Fill the final 4 forwards with rookies and role players (600k each)--> 4M left with 20 players.

5. They can get a 4M defenseman without touching their current top 8 forwards or any defense... OR... they can wait until december and have the equivilent of 8M in cap space to acquire a dman and a depth forward if needed. Either way, dougie can go at with basically the same team with just a much improved defense.