Michael Jordan is a hypocrite

[flyerhawk]

He made it about rings because, with as close as all time greats tend to be, rings end up being the tiebreaker.

Like most of us on here, I have seen both Kobe and Lebron's entire careers. I believe that Lebron is the better overall player.

However, statistically speaking and the "resume's" of their respective careers is close enough that when you add in number of rings...it gives those who favor Kobe a solid argument.

I don't have a problem with that argument even if I disagree with it. I certainly didn't infer that was Jordan's argument. He seemed to be SPECIFICALLY focusing on rings in an almost disdainful manner.

From a pure basketball perspective, Lebron is the best, most talented player I have seen. He has gifts that literally make it unfair. He's been blessed with a combination of size, strength, speed, quickness, leaping ability, vision and athleticism that is literally unmatched by any player I have ever seen and I've been following the NBA since 1970.

However, at the end of the day, for most people it comes down to winning on the biggest stage. MJ won every time he stepped onto the NBA's biggest stage. Lebron, on the other hand, has failed on the biggest stage over half of the time he's been there. If Lebron's finals record stood at 5-3 instead of 3-5, I think there would be a whole lot more people (myself included) listing him as GOAT. But, that's not the case, so when you factor in everything involved...it leaves Lebron short.

I get the argument. I disagree with it but I get it. I would be more comfortable with someone making the argument that he shouldn't be considered the GOAT because of the Mavs finals which is the one I think that he SHOULD have won.

Basketball is the most individually driven team sport out there. But it is still a team sport. Of the 5 finals that Lebron lost, one he literally carried a non-playoff team to the finals(first Cavs), 2 he lost to arguably the greatest basketball team of all time(Warriors), one he lost to another all time great team(Spurs) and then the Mavs.

I don't think anyone diminishes what Bird or Magic did because they lost titles. Mainly because they lost them mostly to each other. But they still lost them.

Having said all that, I'm not really talking about whether Lebron should or shouldn't be considered the GOAT. My point is that Jordan's argument is pretty weak. Yes it is self-serving but you would think that the guy who is generally considered the GOAT, wouldn't feel the need to engage in such pettiness.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Also, I couldn't disagree more about mass opinion. Highly knowledgeable people almost all side with LeBron on this, and MJ is clearly biased.

Opinion is all that matters. There is no fixed set list of the best player of all time. There are probably more Kobe fans than there are lebron fans.

 

[trojanfan12]

I get the argument. I disagree with it but I get it. I would be more comfortable with someone making the argument that he shouldn't be considered the GOAT because of the Mavs finals which is the one I think that he SHOULD have won.

It doesn't matter if he isn't considered GOAT because of 1 finals loss or 5...he still isn't considered GOAT.

I don't think anyone diminishes what Bird or Magic did because they lost titles. Mainly because they lost them mostly to each other. But they still lost them.

Actually, they do get diminished for their finals records. Magic lost 4 finals and only one was to Bird. The other 3 were to the Sixers, Pistons and MJ's first Bulls title team.

Those losses are largely why Magic is normally 2nd or 3rd behind MJ on most lists. The losses also diminish Kareem (who actually has a better overall resume than MJ) despite him having the same number of rings as MJ. For both Magic and Kareem, the end of the argument is always "MJ never lost in the finals."

People try to use the number of times Lebron has made the finals. Yet both Magic (9 appearances) and Kareem (10 appearances) have been there more than Lebron, but still come up short vs. MJ.

 

[trojanfan12]

Having said all that, I'm not really talking about whether Lebron should or shouldn't be considered the GOAT. My point is that Jordan's argument is pretty weak. Yes it is self-serving but you would think that the guy who is generally considered the GOAT, wouldn't feel the need to engage in such pettiness.

It's how guys like that are wired. He's so driven to be the best there ever was, that he's going to do or say whatever he has to in order to protect his status. It's that thing that we see happen with a lot of all time greats. The very thing that made them so great, comes back to bite them and make them look bad.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

And Im not even a Kobe fan so I can state it objectively

That's fucking funny.

 

[Rex Racer]

Top 10 all-time, according to MJ logic:

1. Bill Russell
   
   
2. Sam Jones
   
   
3. Tom Heinsohn
   
   
4. K. C. Jones
   
   
5. Tom "Satch" Sanders
   
   
6. John Havlicek
   
   
7. Jim Loscutoff
   
   
8. Frank Ramsey
   
   
9. Robert Horry
   
   
10. Bob Cousy

MJ really knows his basketball

 

[redseat]

Yeah well Lavar ball is better than all 3 of them combined!!

 

[tlance]

Opinion is all that matters. There is no fixed set list of the best player of all time. There are probably more Kobe fans than there are lebron fans.

opinion of people in the know is all that matters. I could care less what casual fans think. Casual fans probably think Kyrie is a better player than Giannis. That doesn't make them correct.

 

[knowyourenemy]

Uh, not really. MJ is still pretty much universally considered the GOAT.

By people 25 and under? I don't think it's even close to unanimous.

Take a look at this:

Vote: Where does LeBron rank among best ever?

Once you vote and put your sex and age, you can see the breakdowns.

24% of all people rank him #1. Unfortunately, they don't show the percentage numbers by age, but you can see a big chunk of people 18-24 consider him to be the best all-time. Eyeballing it, it's probably somewhere between 30-33% that rank him #1 in that age group.

 

[knowyourenemy]

opinion of people in the know is all that matters. I could care less what casual fans think. Casual fans probably think Kyrie is a better player than Giannis. That doesn't make them correct.

Bingo Jerry.

 

[knowyourenemy]

Opinion is all that matters. There is no fixed set list of the best player of all time. There are probably more Kobe fans than there are lebron fans.

More people may like Kobe than LeBron but I'd guess that more people would rank LeBron ahead of Kobe. I'm not sure it would be particularly close.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

More people may like Kobe than LeBron but I'd guess that more people would rank LeBron ahead of Kobe. I'm not sure it would be particularly close.

Google "vote Kobe or lebron" and Kobe wins most of them. What would the reason be other than popularity?

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

opinion of people in the know is all that matters. I could care less what casual fans think. Casual fans probably think Kyrie is a better player than Giannis. That doesn't make them correct.

And who decides who is in the know and who is a casual fan? Does an ESPN writer know more about the game than anyone on these boards?

So who is correct?

 

[knowyourenemy]

Google "vote Kobe or lebron" and Kobe wins most of them. What would the reason be other than popularity?

Google "Kobe Bryant all-time rank poll" and google "LeBron all-time rank poll." Tell me whose polls look better.

 

[CitySushi]

And who decides who is in the know and who is a casual fan? Does an ESPN writer know more about the game than anyone on these boards?

So who is correct?

A fan in the know is able to separate their fandom from the player to actually make a calculated and informed opinion. When people were going crazy two years ago about Curry surpassing Lebron, I said hell no Lebron was still the better player and it was evident.

A fan in the know is able to look at the overall skill set of a player and determine their value. They're able to see how they tangibly effect the game and which areas they excel at.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Google "Kobe Bryant all-time rank poll" and google "LeBron all-time rank poll." Tell me whose polls look better.

I can find just as many that have Kobe over lebron.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

More people may like Kobe than LeBron but I'd guess that more people would rank LeBron ahead of Kobe. I'm not sure it would be particularly close.

Latest ESPN poll after the Jordan video came out.

 

[knowyourenemy]

I can find just as many that have Kobe over lebron.

Well explain why Kobe has like 10% of people who rank him as the best all-time and only like 40% who even put him in the top 5 but LeBron has over 50% who put him in the top 2. How many rankings by ESPN or CBS or SI or anywhere have Kobe ranked over LeBron?

Kobe is not even a top 10 player of all-time. Anyone who votes Kobe over LeBron is either a Lakers fan or doesn't understand basketball. And don't get me wrong -- he was a great player but he doesn't even belong in the discussion with Mr. James.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Well explain why Kobe has like 10% of people who rank him as the best all-time and only like 40% who even put him in the top 5 but LeBron has over 50% who put him in the top 2. How many rankings by ESPN or CBS or SI or anywhere have Kobe ranked over LeBron?

Kobe is not even a top 10 player of all-time. Anyone who votes Kobe over LeBron is either a Lakers fan or doesn't understand basketball. And don't get me wrong -- he was a great player but he doesn't even belong in the discussion with Mr. James.

Your opinion

 

[knowyourenemy]

Latest ESPN poll after the Jordan video came out.

A lot of stupid people must have voted in that poll.