Michael Jordan is a hypocrite

[flyerhawk]

And yet you made a thread just to use the Bill Russell argument.

No. I made a thread criticizing Jordan for using the Russell argument.

 

[DJ]

Pho Kobe

That doesn't look very appetizing.....

 

[trojanfan12]

Reasons besides 5 > 3 that Kobe is better than Lebron.

The Black Mamba is a way cooler nickname than The King or The Chosen One.

Kobe chooses to be bald.

Kobe has the hotter wife.

Kobe lives in Newport Beach, Lebron lives in Akron.

The GOAT himself says so.

Airplane glide celebration is way cooler than the Herman Munster walk celebration.

Kobe's "Death Stare" is way more intimidating than Lebron's whiney face or I just bit into an aspirin face.

Spoiler: Oh yeah and...

5 > 3

 

[msgkings322]

Like he went over there chasing titles lmao.

Still, sidekick.

 

[trojanfan12]

No. I made a thread criticizing Jordan for using the Russell argument.

You used the Bill Russell argument in your opening post. Jordan didn't use the Russell argument. He simply said 5 >3.

The Bill Russell argument was debunked because of the era he played in and was being used to discount number of rings as part of the GOAT debate. Because the numbers both statistically and for accomplishments are always very close between all time greats, rings have become the tiebreaker.

What MJ's statement says to me is that MJ sees it as close between Lebron and Kobe and used rings as the tiebreaker.

I do tend to agree with @tlance in that it likely has more to do with MJ protecting his legacy since Kobe is pretty much considered MJ lite, even by Lakers fans and Lebron is the only active player that anyone even mentions with MJ.

I will say though, that this last finals loss pretty much ends Lebron ever being able to catch MJ. So, he probably doesn't need to worry about Lebron anymore.

 

[knowyourenemy]

Do you think he thinks that Bill Russell was better than he was?

Of course not.

Is Bill Russell even a top 20 player of all-time?

 

[knowyourenemy]

You used the Bill Russell argument in your opening post. Jordan didn't use the Russell argument. He simply said 5 >3.

The Bill Russell argument was debunked because of the era he played in and was being used to discount number of rings as part of the GOAT debate. Because the numbers both statistically and for accomplishments are always very close between all time greats, rings have become the tiebreaker.

What MJ's statement says to me is that MJ sees it as close between Lebron and Kobe and used rings as the tiebreaker.

I do tend to agree with @tlance in that it likely has more to do with MJ protecting his legacy since Kobe is pretty much considered MJ lite, even by Lakers fans and Lebron is the only active player that anyone even mentions with MJ.

I will say though, that this last finals loss pretty much ends Lebron ever being able to catch MJ. So, he probably doesn't need to worry about Lebron anymore.

Worry about what? A significant portion of the latest generation of basketball fans already think LeBron is better than Jordan.

 

[tlance]

Since when are the masses highly knowledgeable?

They aren't. Kind of my point.

 

[flyerhawk]

You used the Bill Russell argument in your opening post. Jordan didn't use the Russell argument. He simply said 5 >3.

You are being obtuse here.

What MJ's statement says to me is that MJ sees it as close between Lebron and Kobe and used rings as the tiebreaker.

You can add whatever you personally like to justify his comment but his comment was pretty straightforward "There's something about five that beats three. ... Kobe won five championships. LeBron won three -- although he's been to seven [consecutive] Finals," He didn't say anything about it being close otherwise. He made it about rings.

I will say though, that this last finals loss pretty much ends Lebron ever being able to catch MJ. So, he probably doesn't need to worry about Lebron anymore.

There are some that would always say MJ is better because he was 6-0 in finals. Some will say he is better because he won 6 rings. And some will say Lebron is better regardless of ring count.

 

[tlance]

Jordan has 10 scoring titles, DPOY, Perfect 6-0 In finals, Career playoff records, etc. etc. etc. Nothing for Jordan to fear vs. a guy who's a pathetic 3-5 in NBA finals.

I dont know if Lebron is the best anymore as well. Durant/Leonard have an argument

I am not saying LeBron is better than Jordan. Finals record is a terrible barometer though. Kobe had a 30-11 overall record in playoff series. LeBron is 32-8. Kobe also failed to make the playoffs in 2005 while in his prime.

Only looking at Finals record is a terribly distorted way of thinking. Let's forget for a second that kobe wasn't even the best player on his team for his first two rings. Here is a list of Kobe's Finals' opponents:

Pacers
6ers
Nets
Pistons
Celtics 2 times

6ers and Nets were layups. Pacers and Pistons were inferior teams. The Pistons happened to win anyway. Only the Celtics were a true peer of Kobe's Lakers and they split. The point is that when the Lakers faced superior teams, they lost. Just as LeBron's teams have. In Kobe's case it never really happened in the Finals.

While LeBron has not faced quite as difficult a road leading up to the Finals, his Finals opponents have been as tough as anyone in history has had to see. Perhaps only Jerry West really knows what that is like.

 

[DJ]

Reasons besides 5 > 3 that Kobe is better than Lebron.

The Black Mamba is a way cooler nickname than The King or The Chosen One.

Kobe chooses to be bald.

Kobe has the hotter wife.

Kobe lives in Newport Beach, Lebron lives in Akron.

The GOAT himself says so.

Airplane glide celebration is way cooler than the Herman Munster walk celebration.

Kobe's "Death Stare" is way more intimidating than Lebron's whiney face or I just bit into an aspirin face.

Spoiler: Oh yeah and...

5 > 3

TJ keeping t 100.

 

[DJ]

Kobe also failed to make the playoffs in 2005 while in his prime.

Playing in the WC with a garbage team.

 

[DJ]

Smush Parker.....

 

[tlance]

Playing in the WC with a garbage team.

I agree they were garbage.

LeBron made the Finals in 07 with a supporting cast only marginally better than Kobe's '05 group.

Kobe '05
Odom
Caron Butler
Divac
Brian Grant
Brian Cook
Chucky Atkins
Devein George
Luke Walton
Kareem Rush

LeBron '07
Larry Hughes
Zydrunas
Donyell Marshall
Drew Gooden
Eric Snow
Sasha Pavlovich
David Wesley
Boobie Gibson
Shannon Brown

Honestly, after looking at this I have to say the Lakers '05 roster was better. Butler and Odom were better than anybody LeBron had.

 

[TJL]

Kareem got sons.
Magic got sons.
Jordan got sons.
Shaq got sons.

And all they sons is whack.

 

[DJ]

I agree they were garbage.

LeBron made the Finals in 07 with a supporting cast only marginally better than Kobe's '05 group.

Kobe '05
Odom
Caron Butler
Divac
Brian Grant
Brian Cook
Chucky Atkins
Devein George
Luke Walton
Kareem Rush

LeBron '07
Larry Hughes
Zydrunas
Donyell Marshall
Drew Gooden
Eric Snow
Sasha Pavlovich
David Wesley
Boobie Gibson
Shannon Brown

Honestly, after looking at this I have to say the Lakers '05 roster was better. Butler and Odom were better than anybody LeBron had.

Conveniently overlooking they played in the WC.....

 

[tlance]

Conveniently overlooking they played in the WC.....

THey were 34-48.

There is no way you can spin that in favor of Kobe.

 

[trojanfan12]

Worry about what? A significant portion of the latest generation of basketball fans already think LeBron is better than Jordan.

Uh, not really. MJ is still pretty much universally considered the GOAT.

 

[logic]

How about it LeBron had Phil Jackson as his coach (not GM) for his peak years?

 

[trojanfan12]

You can add whatever you personally like to justify his comment but his comment was pretty straightforward "There's something about five that beats three. ... Kobe won five championships. LeBron won three -- although he's been to seven [consecutive] Finals," He didn't say anything about it being close otherwise. He made it about rings.

He made it about rings because, with as close as all time greats tend to be, rings end up being the tiebreaker.

Like most of us on here, I have seen both Kobe and Lebron's entire careers. I believe that Lebron is the better overall player.

However, statistically speaking and the "resume's" of their respective careers is close enough that when you add in number of rings...it gives those who favor Kobe a solid argument.

There are some that would always say MJ is better because he was 6-0 in finals. Some will say he is better because he won 6 rings. And some will say Lebron is better regardless of ring count.

There aren't very many left who will say that Lebron is better. Even most of the Cavs fans and Lebroniacs have been conceding.

From a pure basketball perspective, Lebron is the best, most talented player I have seen. He has gifts that literally make it unfair. He's been blessed with a combination of size, strength, speed, quickness, leaping ability, vision and athleticism that is literally unmatched by any player I have ever seen and I've been following the NBA since 1970.

However, at the end of the day, for most people it comes down to winning on the biggest stage. MJ won every time he stepped onto the NBA's biggest stage. Lebron, on the other hand, has failed on the biggest stage over half of the time he's been there. If Lebron's finals record stood at 5-3 instead of 3-5, I think there would be a whole lot more people (myself included) listing him as GOAT. But, that's not the case, so when you factor in everything involved...it leaves Lebron short.