Houston Asterisks

[TrustMeIamRight]

well, with Manfred making so many mistakes, you are probably right... But the target would be mostly on Manfred...

but point is, if Houston gave a real apology... whether fake or not... they wouldn't be ripped apart like this...

your point about players commenting, you have to remember that the situation is topical right now, and all interviewers will ask questions about this...


if this was handled correctly by Houston and Manfred, I do think that this scandal would be passing... and we would be talking about other things... Like how Javier Baez claimed that the 2019 failures were due to Cubs be unprepared...

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. They have had players already comment that the cheating by Houston was worse than Steroids.

These are professional hitters — if you give them what pitch is coming it is as big of an advantage as you can possible have. This wasn’t going away with an ‘I’m sorry’.

Opposing players want blood, fans of baseball want blood — I think this gets uglier than it already has been.

Manfred giving them immunity is an utter disgrace. Honestly — I think the greatest punishment you can give the Astros and blackballing each and every one of them from the HOF. Give them the Bonds and Clemens treatment. ESPECIALLY Verlander.

I don’t think you could find a bigger fan of Verlander than myself. I thought he played the game right — he was vocal, calling out every player for cheating and talking about the integrity of the game. He was the ultimate role model for kids and then he goes to Houston and when the cheating is for his benefit — he doesn’t say a word. Such a hypocrite.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Altuve was also a guy they said didn’t use it as much as others. But I’d be willing to bet once the playoffs started and the games meant something, they definitely used it for everyone.

And who is talking about dismissing the sign stealing? You hear how serious the players in the league are taking it, with their responses. They know firsthand how huge of an advantage is.

Exactly and this is the most important thing, the players. Manfred is doing a lousy job of thinking of the most important aspect of baseball and what keeps this sport driving...the players and fans. Fire this guy, he has absolutely no clue what he is doing at this point.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Pretty much this.

When it is all said and done this is just a game.

Every team will cheat if they think they can get away with it. In every sport.

No, I don't believe this. There are plenty of players, coaches and teams that actually have morals..to what extent, who knows but you can't just lump everyone in a group bc you have no idea. Plain and simple, the Astros were caught, they didn't own up to it which makes it worse and this wasn't a classic case of a runner giving the batter signs...this is a process that lasted years making potential devices. This is a mastermind type of cheating plan we got here. But besides the point, like others said if they would have just owned up to it like big boys...this would hate wouldn't be as strong. They are taking themselves down a very crooked path and it's going to get very ugly.

 

[Sparhawk]

Could the players union force the issue?

They obviously represent the players that cheated and would want them to have fair representation.
But, they also represent the remaining players that did not cheat.

If the players union wanted to penalize the cheaters, could they?

 

[Shanemansj13]

Giancarlo Stanton rips Astros, says title should be stripped: 'You're only really sorry because you got caught'

 

[flyerhawk]

No, I don't believe this. There are plenty of players, coaches and teams that actually have morals..to what extent, who knows but you can't just lump everyone in a group bc you have no idea. Plain and simple, the Astros were caught, they didn't own up to it which makes it worse and this wasn't a classic case of a runner giving the batter signs...this is a process that lasted years making potential devices. This is a mastermind type of cheating plan we got here. But besides the point, like others said if they would have just owned up to it like big boys...this would hate wouldn't be as strong. They are taking themselves down a very crooked path and it's going to get very ugly.

I 100% disagree with this. Maybe this is true at the collegiate level. But at the professional level, you are talking about people's lives.

And, in this particular case, we are creating an arbitrary line of what is and what is not cheating. A player on 2nd base stealing signs is perfectly fine. A guy in the bleachers with nocs stealing signs, otoh, is a crime against humanity.

We have players in the Hall of the Fame who were FAMOUS for cheating like Gaylord Perry and players famous for unfair play like Ty Cobb trying to injure other players to stop them from trying to make a tag.

The 1951 Giants of Bobby Thompson fame were stealing signs. Does that make that game any less famous?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

No, I don't believe this. There are plenty of players, coaches and teams that actually have morals..to what extent, who knows but you can't just lump everyone in a group bc you have no idea. Plain and simple, the Astros were caught, they didn't own up to it which makes it worse and this wasn't a classic case of a runner giving the batter signs...this is a process that lasted years making potential devices. This is a mastermind type of cheating plan we got here. But besides the point, like others said if they would have just owned up to it like big boys...this would hate wouldn't be as strong. They are taking themselves down a very crooked path and it's going to get very ugly.

I disagree with your whole post... Not that people don't have morals... Most people do, and most people know what they are doing is wrong... but people feel uncomfortable doing something for just so long... and when people find success, they are willing to look past anything... Also, people don't necessarily realize how illegal the things they are doing are... you sometimes get wrapped into what you are doing...

so if the right person in power decides to "cheat", the underlings will follow suit because of fear of losing their job(or for players- playing time)... and then the ones slower to follow, are more likely to follow when they see success...


its very easy to believe that morals can be corrupted very easily... even the most moral people...

 

[Cedrique]

Well that's the thing. Jose Altuve had a higher BA and a higher OPS on the road in 2017 than at home. So did Alex Bregman.



That logically makes sense. But it is also possible that they only used it in high leverage situations which would make it tougher to spot. Which is why we can't just dismiss the impact of the sign stealing.

The really weird thing is in 2017 the Astros were 5 games better on the road than they were at home. And in 2018 it was 11 games. No other team is even close to being that much better on the road than at home over those 2 seasons.
To be honest I looked at it from a couple different angles and I can't see anything to suggest the Astros have performed better at home over the last few years. Almost all of the Astros have better stats on the road than at home. But obviously that doesn't tell the whole story because each park is different and teams adjust their ballparks from year to year. I know Houston has been doing something with humidors to suppress scoring a little and the Angels have lowered a couple fences to increase scoring there.

 

[socaljim242]

evidence doesn't matter, they lose the benefit of doubt...

if you are a teacher, and you catch a kid cheating on a test, do you have to prove how many questions he cheated on?? will you ever trust that kid again when he wanders his eyes even a little??

Well there's no evidence he didn't already know the answers so you can't prove the cheating helped so he should be allowed to keep the grade- Asinine logic.

 

[socaljim242]

The really weird thing is in 2017 the Astros were 5 games better on the road than they were at home. And in 2018 it was 11 games. No other team is even close to being that much better on the road than at home over those 2 seasons.
To be honest I looked at it from a couple different angles and I can't see anything to suggest the Astros have performed better at home over the last few years. Almost all of the Astros have better stats on the road than at home. But obviously that doesn't tell the whole story because each park is different and teams adjust their ballparks from year to year. I know Houston has been doing something with humidors to suppress scoring a little and the Angels have lowered a couple fences to increase scoring there.

What if they were actually good players ,since quite a few were #1 picks from the draft because the astros sucked for many years. And they would have been good anyway but this put them over the top and gave them an edge to where they won some games they wouldn't have or prevented long losing streaks.
The point is the cheated and they should be stripped.

 

[socaljim242]

I know most of you don't really give a shit about the opinion of an Astros fan...

But...

I'm gonna give it anyway. I have zero respect for cheaters. I feel robbed as a fan that the only world series win I've ever been able to witness is forever tainted and unearned by our players. I also feel for fans of other teams who were potentially robbed of seeing their team win in 2017.

Now to the players, I don't feel much of anything toward them. Why? Because not a single Astros player or former player said a damn thing until well after the fact and even then it was 1 guy. A guy who made sure he got his ring and ovation and was all smiles doing it. Took him 2 years to muster the "courage" once he was on a rival quality team in the same division and competing in the playoffs against the Astros.

So if anything, this tells me about the lack of moral compass in professional baseball players. That Astros team wasn't full of morally bankrupt individuals outside the norm of baseball. It was full of modern day baseball players all looking for an edge and not giving a shit about the purity of the game or who might be hurt.

2015 Yankees busted cheating. 2017 Yankees and Red Sox busted cheating. Dodgers busted cheating with laser pointers of some sort. 2018 Red Sox busted cheating. etc etc etc

Those are the best teams in baseball. None of the players said shit about it. No different than the Astros except the Astros won it all, were brazen about it, and un-remorseful when they got caught.

Just my opinion.

You had me till you gave the Astro fan ....but others have cheated excuse.
"the Dodgers busted cheating with laser pointers or some sort"

Thats such fuckin bullshit. Yes the Dodgers got busted using a laser pointer TO MOVE OUTFEILDERS TO WERE THEY WANTED HIM TO PLAY DEFENSIVELY. Thats not even in the same universe of what they astros were doing.

 

[socaljim242]

I 100% disagree with this. Maybe this is true at the collegiate level. But at the professional level, you are talking about people's lives.

And, in this particular case, we are creating an arbitrary line of what is and what is not cheating. A player on 2nd base stealing signs is perfectly fine. A guy in the bleachers with nocs stealing signs, otoh, is a crime against humanity.

We have players in the Hall of the Fame who were FAMOUS for cheating like Gaylord Perry and players famous for unfair play like Ty Cobb trying to injure other players to stop them from trying to make a tag.

The 1951 Giants of Bobby Thompson fame were stealing signs. Does that make that game any less famous?

And still you don't get it. They cheated the game , the cheated opposing players. They stole a championship. Go tell Clayton Kershaw every one and every team does it. Tell Bellinger, tell Muncy and Turner who wern't high draft picks who were just about out of the league when hard work resurrected their careers. Imagine how they feel knowing a bunch of first round draft picks cheated to win.

 

[Shanemansj13]

I 100% disagree with this. Maybe this is true at the collegiate level. But at the professional level, you are talking about people's lives.

And, in this particular case, we are creating an arbitrary line of what is and what is not cheating. A player on 2nd base stealing signs is perfectly fine. A guy in the bleachers with nocs stealing signs, otoh, is a crime against humanity.

We have players in the Hall of the Fame who were FAMOUS for cheating like Gaylord Perry and players famous for unfair play like Ty Cobb trying to injure other players to stop them from trying to make a tag.

The 1951 Giants of Bobby Thompson fame were stealing signs. Does that make that game any less famous?

Again lumping every player and coach into this group is just 100% not right and honestly it's a very lame excuse. You named a couple players (there's been more than a couple) but you said every player and coach would cheat..that is just not right and really takes away credit from players that actually worked towards their goals the RIGHT way.
You trying to defend the Astros for what they did bc you THINK everyone else cheats is basically the same excuse they are using...again, very lame. Not everyone cheats, I'm sure a ton think about it...but taking the act to cheat especially to this specific level is something we have never seen before. I guess you just can't comprehend that fact.

The overall point is they got caught. Nothing else matters. Stop trying to make excuses for their actions.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

And still you don't get it. They cheated the game , the cheated opposing players. They stole a championship. Go tell Clayton Kershaw every one and every team does it. Tell Bellinger, tell Muncy and Turner who wern't high draft picks who were just about out of the league when hard work resurrected their careers. Imagine how they feel knowing a bunch of first round draft picks cheated to win.

true, but there is a difference between understanding why people cheat and demanding punishment... I have no doubt that anyone put into the same shoes as any astro, would have cheated as much as anyone did... I also believe others cheat, maybe worse than this scandal...

But that is irrelevant... Getting Caught is all that is important... once you are caught, you are the cheaters... until caught you are not cheating...

Which may be why other players are so mad, not because these players cheated, but because they are trying to shine the light on everyone cheating... and nobody wants to be caught...

 

[flyerhawk]

Again lumping every player and coach into this group is just 100% not right and honestly it's a very lame excuse. You named a couple players (there's been more than a couple) but you said every player and coach would cheat..that is just not right and really takes away credit from players that actually worked towards their goals the RIGHT way.
You trying to defend the Astros for what they did bc you THINK everyone else cheats is basically the same excuse they are using...again, very lame. Not everyone cheats, I'm sure a ton think about it...but taking the act to cheat especially to this specific level is something we have never seen before. I guess you just can't comprehend that fact.

A. Arguing in absolutes is a copout. Of course not 100% of players and coaches would cheat. There are very few things that 100% of players and coaches would do.
B. I'm not really defending the Astros so much as criticizing the overwrought hand wringing about it all.

If the MLB chose to take away their World Series title I would shrug my shoulders about it. Except that I think it would establish a very dangerous precedent going forward.

If sign stealing was such the scourge that everyone is claiming, it could be eliminated tomorrow and never be a problem again. Except no one is calling for that. In large part because people think that SOME cheating is perfectly fine.

 

[flyerhawk]

And still you don't get it. They cheated the game , the cheated opposing players. They stole a championship. Go tell Clayton Kershaw every one and every team does it. Tell Bellinger, tell Muncy and Turner who wern't high draft picks who were just about out of the league when hard work resurrected their careers. Imagine how they feel knowing a bunch of first round draft picks cheated to win.

Oh. so you are just a butthurt Dodgers fan. OK. I get that.

 

[Cedrique]

What if they were actually good players ,since quite a few were #1 picks from the draft because the astros sucked for many years. And they would have been good anyway but this put them over the top and gave them an edge to where they won some games they wouldn't have or prevented long losing streaks.
The point is the cheated and they should be stripped.

I understand that point but I don't really have anything to say about that so I went off on a tangent that I found more interesting.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

true, but there is a difference between understanding why people cheat and demanding punishment... I have no doubt that anyone put into the same shoes as any astro, would have cheated as much as anyone did... I also believe others cheat, maybe worse than this scandal...

But that is irrelevant... Getting Caught is all that is important... once you are caught, you are the cheaters... until caught you are not cheating...

Which may be why other players are so mad, not because these players cheated, but because they are trying to shine the light on everyone cheating... and nobody wants to be caught...

Im curious what could be worse than a professional hitter knowing what pitch is coming?!?

And it wasn’t one player cheating. It was an entire organization.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Im curious what could be worse than a professional hitter knowing what pitch is coming?!?

And it wasn’t one player cheating. It was an entire organization.

who cares what is worse?? cheating is cheating is cheating... once caught!!!

of course it was the whole organization that cheated... nobody is arguing against that... but an organization is built of individuals...

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

who cares what is worse?? cheating is cheating is cheating... once caught!!!

of course it was the whole organization that cheated... nobody is arguing against that... but an organization is built of individuals...

YOU made the statement — you said you believe others cheat, maybe worse than this scandal. Hence the reason I asked — what could possibly be worse than telling a professional hitter what pitch is coming?

And in the organization — individuals can choose or choose not to cheat. Anyone saying a player would lose his job if they refused to cheat is absolutely asinine. It is the exact reason why Verlander is an absolute joke and has all but become a hermit on social media — as he screamed from the rooftops about sign stealing, steroids and anything else related to cheating. He condemned anyone caught. Then goes to the Astros and doesn’t say a word.

As I said — the MLB may not have punished them, but I hope they black ball every single player who was part of the organization over the last 3 years from the HOF.