"Grumble, I don't like it!" - tOfficial VTfoozball thread

[VTfoozball]

The primary "critical error" that cost us the Michigan game was created by a replay ref who had made a similar call in previous game between PAC-12 programs. Which Tech coach or player do you want to blame for that POS call?

By the way, Coale's catch in OT was used by several analysts describing his excellent pass-catching skills.

Oh yeah it was a catch all right but you probably assumed I thought it wasn't.

The blame for the coaches is on the play calling in the redzone. There is a video on youtube somewhere which shows every redzone play and the extreme lopsidedness with the run plays

 

[sparko]

The blame for the coaches is on the play calling in the redzone. There is a video on youtube somewhere which shows every redzone play and the extreme lopsidedness with the run plays

...ding ding .. probably the first comment that footzball has made that i totally agree with .. it WAS a catch .. BUT .. it should have never come to that .. anyone who says that we lost that game because of a catch is in serious denial regarding the red zone offensive play calling of that game

but back to the topic du jour foozball -- we are virginia tech .. we're not alabama, lsu, notre dame, the list goes on .. our recruiting has improved and gets better (it seems) EVERY year .. if you want to hate on something, knock the coaching or play calling .. as far as recruiting, we're doing well and doing all that the coaches can .. if you think we should just offer 4+ stars, we'll lose out on A LOT of other GOOD recruits because of a "you're not good enough" attitude.

 

[HokieGhost]

The blame for the coaches is on the play calling in the redzone. There is a video on youtube somewhere which shows every redzone play and the extreme lopsidedness with the run plays

That video doesn't take into account how many times Michigan knew what we play we were going to check into depending on Michigan's initial defensive alignment. For example, if Michigan appeared to be set up to defend against the pass, we checked into a running play. Michigan promptly moved into the correct alignment prior to the snap to stop that play.

You might have figured that out eventually if you weren't so eager to stick it to the Tech coaching staff and the football program in general.

The pistol formation in the Red Zone will force opposing defenses to use a more balanced alignment because it won't be readily apparent what play we intend to run.

 

[hokiecheme11]

That video doesn't take into account how many times Michigan knew what we play we were going to check into depending on Michigan's initial defensive alignment. For example, if Michigan appeared to be set up to defend against the pass, we checked into a running play. Michigan promptly moved into the correct alignment prior to the snap to stop that play.

You might have figured that out eventually if you weren't so eager to stick it to the Tech coaching staff and the football program in general.

The pistol formation in the Red Zone will force opposing defenses to use a more balanced alignment because it won't be readily apparent what play we intend to run.

The fact that Michigan knew what we were going to check into reflects directly onto the coaching staff, so I'm with foozball

 

[HokieGhost]

The fact that Michigan knew what we were going to check into reflects directly onto the coaching staff, so I'm with foozball

By a two-to-one margin of total offense, we must have known what Michigan was going to do, too. Michigan had less than 200 yards of total offense while Tech was rolling up almost 400 yards.

Additionally, how much blame can be placed on the coaches in the Red Zone when the plays don't get executed properly? For instance, in our first possession we got the ball down to the Michigan 4 with a 1st-and-goal. Wilson gets the ball and promptly loses his mind along with 22 yards. We ended up having to settle for an FG.

How about mental errors by the defense? For instance, Michigan had a 3rd-and-17 at the Tech 45 and completed a long pass for a TD against a defense that was EXPECTING to defend against the pass! WTF?

How about mental errors by special teams? On kick-off following the long pass for a Michigan TD, Gregory fumbles the ball allowing Michigan to kick an FG at the end of the first half.

 

[hokiegrad]

If he was recruited with WR in mind I doubt it. North vs Newsome...hmm let's see...same speed but one is about 5 inches taller and 30-35 pounds heavier...hmmm

North's measurables are no doubt better. And for all I know he was rated more highly by the coaches. But I won't assume that. There is a lot more to these guys than measurables alone. Does North have as much shake to him as Newsome does? Is North as intelligent? Is he going to cause problems? Etc.

I don't know the answers to these questions, so I'm not disparaging North or praising Newsome, I'm just saying there's more to it. And a lot of these non-measurables are overlooked by the scouting services. You know the same isn't true when our coaches are evaluating who they want.

 

[HokieGhost]

...a lot of these non-measurables are overlooked by the scouting services. You know the same isn't true when our coaches are evaluating who they want.

Absolutely correct. In addition to physical ability and football IQ, Tech's coaches look for, in no particular order:

* Good motor, or lack thereof...do they take plays off? Are they lazy or driven?

* Character...good, bad, or in-between?

* Academics...can they get past Tech's entry requirements? Will they be a problem in the classroom?

* Good references from people and coaches known by the Tech staff

* Are they a legacy recruit? Do they have good bloodlines?

 

[bigesse16]

Why would they want Newsome over North? Just because one commits before another doesn't mean it was their first choice. We've got all these DB commits before Fuller does that mean he is not 1st choice?

It's a question of whether or not the recruit wants to come here. We aren't going to deny a kid we offer unless the boat is full. This is recruiting 101. You send out more offers than you can take and make sure you get the guys you want, doesn't matter on the pecking order. If you play the wait game too long, then you can get burned like we did in 2011. If North really wants to come here then we can find a way to make it work, but we aren't going to deny Newsome a chance because we think North is higher on the board.

Very few prospects have a spot "saved" for them. Those are guys we have spent hours recruiting and don't want to miss out. Guys like Fuller, Caleb, Hodges, etc. that we have become invested in. North, while a good recruit, does not have a spot saved. Nor should he. We want guys who want to be at VT and if another player wants it more, we're going to take that person.

Are we full with WRs? I doubt it.

By the way the 2 players singled out by the coaches, the 2 players that Beamer seemed most pleased with in the 2012 class were Harris and Edmunds. Also I think Ekanem was praised a lot. All 4 stars

Here's a quote from signing day this year from Beamer:

“I am tremendously excited about this recruiting class,” coach Frank Beamer said in a prepared statement. “I think every year you have a good group, but I think this one is special. It’ll help us continue to move toward our stated goals. I’m particularly happy with the caliber of player, both from an athletic standpoint and from a character standpoint, that we recruited from Virginia. Plus, we were able to go outside of the state and recruit some high quality kids. We’re happy with our tailback position. We thought that was a real need this year. Another thing I feel great about is the quality of walk-ons we were able to attract. We have several kids who had scholarship offers to other places who have decided to come to Virginia Tech. I can’t name these players, but going over our history with the John Engelbergers, Cody Grimms and Jarrett Fergusons, I think this is a very positive sign for Virginia Tech.”

Hokies announce 2012 recruiting class - ACC Blog - ESPN

Notice how Beamer mentioned 2 star players and walk-ons because they exemplify what Beamer is looking for in players. That won't change under Beamer.

What I want is more players with clear pro potential. A lot of the guys we get have a longer, tougher road ahead of them to get drafted highly and succeed in the NFL. It is important to have those players because they will help with recruiting in the future. If you want to be an elite team then you need to have superstars. You can't have superstars if they don't feel like VT is the best choice for them. They don't feel like VT is the best choice for them because VTs NFL history is 2nd tier to many SEC schools and other powerhouses across the country. If Beamer is not going to make coaching changes then the changes have to come in recruiting if VT is going to take the next step. For the most part I really liked the 2012 class. I think the 2013 class is solid so far but there is some major work to be done especially with the O-line haul. Once again we are getting passed over by all the big name OOS O-line recruits and it doesn't surprise me one bit. This is also a year when we could use a big WR commit because the projected 2013 WRs to this point do not fill me with confidence.

Pro potential based on what? What recruiting services say? And very few teams can recruit like that. The majority of teams are made up of 3 star players because there are more 3 star players. Even the powerhouse teams are made up of 3 star players. Look at Morris Clairbone. A 3 star 5.6 rated player by Rivals as the #58 athlete in the country and he became the best CB in the country and NFL draft. At LSU, a football powerhouse. Bashing a kid based on measurables from a recruiting site is going to make you look foolish, especially before the kid even sees the field in college.

I agree with Oline recruiting, but its the hardest position to recruit because you do not know how kids will develop at the position. Kids have to grow so much at the position and have to be sound in technique, while having great feet, that its almost impossible to predict how they will project. Look at the guys on our roster. Painter, Shuman, Gibson, Benedict, and Acree. All 4 star guys in our OL recruiting, but have had little impact so far. When those guys don't step up, it places immense strain on the rest of the team. Just shows that recruiting services really don't understand OL recruiting.

Boykin was a very solid college WR. He also had his limitations and could never impact a game like someone like Sammy Watkins or Demaryius Thomas. He's also not going to help with recruiting in the future because I don't think he'll make a name for himself in the pros. Boykin was a great find and is one of those "program sustainers" I was talking about but if you want to be able to overcome coaching errors and critical turnovers like those that happened in the Michigan game or be able to hang with a legit top 2-3 team in the nation like 2010 Stanford, then the talent level needs to go up.

Demaryius Thomas was a 3 star 5.6 rated player as the #58 WR. Basically on the same level as Boykin. And Boykin will help in the future because he went to Butler HS, a great football school in NC. Much more than a 'sustainer' since he set all kinds of WR records at VT.

What's funny is that Stanford didn't have world class talent in terms of recruiting.

Stanford notables (All Pac-10 players in 2010) in 2011 OB: David Descastro (3 star), Johnathan Martin (3 star), Owen Marecic (2 star), Doug Baldwin (2 star), Coby Fleener (3 star), Sion Fua (3 star), Chase Beeler (3 star), Delano Howell (3 star), and Andrew Luck (4 star).

And while Michigan is always recruiting well, we dominated them in the stats, just not in scoring.

 

[Sleepy T]

Great post Bigesse. Alot of great points with some links to back it up. REP!

 

[VTfoozball]

My bad you guys. All of VTs recent commits are the staffs 1st choice and all are destined to be superstars in college and in the pros even though VTs track record isn't so great in that area and also while their measurables don't make it seem likely that those things will occur, I'm sure they will just because I have this extremely positive GD feeling about it

 

[VTfoozball]

Absolutely correct. In addition to physical ability and football IQ, Tech's coaches look for, in no particular order:

* Good motor, or lack thereof...do they take plays off? Are they lazy or driven?

* Character...good, bad, or in-between?

* Academics...can they get past Tech's entry requirements? Will they be a problem in the classroom?

* Good references from people and coaches known by the Tech staff

* Are they a legacy recruit? Do they have good bloodlines?

They have ALREADY offered North and several other players with very impressive measurables, offer lists and film

 

[VTfoozball]

Whoever gave me rep for that last comment keep in mind I was being sarcastic

 

[jgHokie]

fooz...i like you....you're a glass half full kinda guy...i like that about you

 

[Rocky]

If he was recruited with WR in mind I doubt it. North vs Newsome...hmm let's see...same speed but one is about 5 inches taller and 30-35 pounds heavier...hmmm

Thats why you aren't a pro football director of personnel.

Those metrics are meaningless.

Wes Welker, 5'9", 185 lbs (with weights in his shoes maybe), undrafted. Slow by NFL WR standards.

Runs great routes, quick first step, sees the field, great hands (with one notable recent exception), and does most of his dirty work across the middle, in LB territory.

led the league in receptions in 2007, 2009 and 2011.

holds the four highest single-season reception totals in Patriots history

as well as four of the top ten receiving yardage totals, including the franchise
franchise records for most receptions in a single game, most receiving yards in a single game, and longest reception.

three consecutive 110-reception seasons, is the only receiver in NFL history with at least 110 receptions in any three seasons.

selected to the Pro Bowl, the All-Pro Team, or both, in every season of his Patriots career.

YOU WOULD PREFER A TALLER, FASTER, HEAVIER MORE ATHLETIC ATHLETE? WHILE IGNORING HANDS, HEART, AND OTHER INTANGIBLES?

 

[iv_hokie12]

Thats why you aren't a pro football director of personnel.

Those metrics are meaningless.

Wes Welker, 5'9", 185 lbs (with weights in his shoes maybe), undrafted. Slow by NFL WR standards.

Runs great routes, quick first step, sees the field, great hands (with one notable recent exception), and does most of his dirty work across the middle, in LB territory.

led the league in receptions in 2007, 2009 and 2011.

holds the four highest single-season reception totals in Patriots history

as well as four of the top ten receiving yardage totals, including the franchise
franchise records for most receptions in a single game, most receiving yards in a single game, and longest reception.

three consecutive 110-reception seasons, is the only receiver in NFL history with at least 110 receptions in any three seasons.

selected to the Pro Bowl, the All-Pro Team, or both, in every season of his Patriots career.

YOU WOULD PREFER A TALLER, FASTER, HEAVIER MORE ATHLETIC ATHLETE? WHILE IGNORING HANDS, HEART, AND OTHER INTANGIBLES?

To further support your point, DJ Coles, Marcus Davis, and Dyrell Robers are all better athletes than Coale or Boykin. Now who again are the #1 and #2 leading receivers in VT history?

 

[hokiecheme11]

To further support your point, DJ Coles, Marcus Davis, and Dyrell Robers are all better athletes than Coale or Boykin. Now who again are the #1 and #2 leading receivers in VT history?

I think that's a good example. MD has all the measurables and was higher rated out of high school than Boykin/Coale. But through their first 3 seasons of production, I would feel much more comfortable with Boykin/Coale than Davis.

While more 5 star WRs would most likely help us, you can't just ignore the 3 star guys we get. I think foozball is saying we are basically too easy on recruits, and take the coaches evals as gospel. But if you look at our track record, we have a pretty good history of developing players.

In my opinion, we do pretty well at the skill positions. Where we fall short is primarily OL recruiting. Foozball says "What I want is more players with clear pro potential", and of course I agree. But to me the only position this is consistently obvious in is the OL. Whenever we play a big time opponent, their DL blows us up.

 

[bigesse16]

My bad you guys. All of VTs recent commits are the staffs 1st choice and all are destined to be superstars in college and in the pros even though VTs track record isn't so great in that area and also while their measurables don't make it seem likely that those things will occur, I'm sure they will just because I have this extremely positive GD feeling about it

There's no reason to agree with all the recruits we pick up. There are plenty that I thought were not good enough for VT, but there's also plenty that have surprised. But my question for you is this: It's May 5th with 9 months until signing day. If the current commits were not the coaches first choice then why did we offer so early and why did we take their commitment?

 

[bigesse16]

I think that's a good example. MD has all the measurables and was higher rated out of high school than Boykin/Coale. But through their first 3 seasons of production, I would feel much more comfortable with Boykin/Coale than Davis.

While more 5 star WRs would most likely help us, you can't just ignore the 3 star guys we get. I think foozball is saying we are basically too easy on recruits, and take the coaches evals as gospel. But if you look at our track record, we have a pretty good history of developing players.

In my opinion, we do pretty well at the skill positions. Where we fall short is primarily OL recruiting. Foozball says "What I want is more players with clear pro potential", and of course I agree. But to me the only position this is consistently obvious in is the OL. Whenever we play a big time opponent, their DL blows us up.

Heck look at Painter. He has the best measurables I've ever seen in a VT lineman and may only have 1 year of meaningful playing time. Measurables show the kind of athleticism a recruit has but it doesn't show what kind of football player a recruit is.

 

[HokieGhost]

They have ALREADY offered North and several other players with very impressive measurables, offer lists and film

Uh...I know that already. Are you trying to make a point of some sort?

If so...epic fail.

 

[Smoke]

100!!!