"Grumble, I don't like it!" - tOfficial VTfoozball thread

[VTfoozball]

What you fail to realize is that I think that the coaches do a great job. But they need to start getting more NFL quality players on both sides of the ball, but especially offense at the WR and OL positions, in order to get the program up to the level of the elite teams. I think everyone here would like for VT to be an elite team. VT gets very good college players, sometimes great ones, but they need to start having more success in the pros so the program can recruit itself. It's a snowball effect. Look at how Miami still gets the big names even while they've been performing so poorly on the field recently. Now before anyone starts on "would you rather go 6-6, 7-5 or 8-4 like Miami?" No I would not. But I know that with the proper coaching (like VTs) those same Miami players could be winners at the college level.

 

[jgHokie]

What you fail to realize is that I think that the coaches do a great job. But they need to start getting more NFL quality players on both sides of the ball, but especially offense at the WR and OL positions, in order to get the program up to the level of the elite teams. I think everyone here would like for VT to be an elite team. VT gets very good college players, sometimes great ones, but they need to start having more success in the pros so the program can recruit itself. It's a snowball effect. Look at how Miami still gets the big names even while they've been performing so poorly on the field recently. Now before anyone starts on "would you rather go 6-6, 7-5 or 8-4 like Miami?" No I would not. But I know that with the proper coaching (like VTs) those same Miami players could be winners at the college level.

lol...you said it yourself right there...miami is one of the best schools as far as having "nfl ready" players. fla st is right there behind them....and what exactly has that translated into?? hmmm... you can have all the talent, measurables, etc that you want, but if they don't have the INTANGIBLES...the want to...the character....then you have teams like miami and fla st....what you're missing (and i don't know how, cause it's been pointed out to you by damn near everyone on this board) is that our coaches look for MORE than those measurables...and if they don't have what they're looking for in the "want to" and character side, it doesn't matter if they're the biggest, fastest player in the world...our coaches don't want em. and as far as your success in the nfl...how many more examples do you need??? jeez man...this is getting stupid...

 

[bigesse16]

Out of the top 25 or so WRs in the NFL, how many are undersized players who outperform their tools like Welker. Exactly. God you people are dense or stubborn I just can't tell which.

The QB position is a totally different position. Unless you are Vick or a blend of size and speed like Vince Young or Cam Newton then how quick or fast you are doesn't matter in the NFL because running won't be an option. Tools aren't important for a QB there. What is important is from the neck up along with having good height.

And another thing...if VT is going to continually have an O-line that is deficient in some way (which I think even you guys have to agree that this is true) then they need to have as much talent as they can at the offensive skill positions.

RB - check
QB - check
WR - uhh no

Need better WRs who can create instant mismatches against almost anyone

Listen, we are not "dense or stubborn." Insulting people when you don't understand their point is not going to help you. We are taking offense because you were criticizing Newsome's measurables and believing it will affect his ability to succeed at VT when the kid has not even yet to step foot on campus and still has another year of high school left to develop. We are conceding to the coaches because they are paid to do this and have been so successful that its hard to argue with them. You can say that we need to improve our WR recruiting, which is fine, but we just came off our best season in terms of passing and receiving in the Beamer era, so I'd say we're doing a pretty good job. There aren't many Sammy Watkins in the country, so expecting to get them is not realistic. Our best bet for a can't miss WR is Jamil Kamara in the 2014 class who is very high on VT. But you can't force kids to come here. So why deny a kid who wants to play here?

 

[jgHokie]

Listen, we are not "dense or stubborn." Insulting people when you don't understand their point is not going to help you. We are taking offense because you were criticizing Newsome's measurables and believing it will affect his ability to succeed at VT when the kid has not even yet to step foot on campus and still has another year of high school left to develop. We are conceding to the coaches because they are paid to do this and have been so successful that its hard to argue with them. You can say that we need to improve our WR recruiting, which is fine, but we just came off our best season in terms of passing and receiving in the Beamer era, so I'd say we're doing a pretty good job. There aren't many Sammy Watkins in the country, so expecting to get them is not realistic. Our best bet for a can't miss WR is Jamil Kamara in the 2014 class who is very high on VT. But you can't force kids to come here. So why deny a kid who wants to play here?

who was just in the limelight for negative reasons....another thing vt doesn't need...goes back to the character issue...

 

[VTfoozball]

lol...you said it yourself right there...miami is one of the best schools as far as having "nfl ready" players. fla st is right there behind them....and what exactly has that translated into?? hmmm... you can have all the talent, measurables, etc that you want, but if they don't have the INTANGIBLES...the want to...the character....then you have teams like miami and fla st....what you're missing (and i don't know how, cause it's been pointed out to you by damn near everyone on this board) is that our coaches look for MORE than those measurables...and if they don't have what they're looking for in the "want to" and character side, it doesn't matter if they're the biggest, fastest player in the world...our coaches don't want em. and as far as your success in the nfl...how many more examples do you need??? jeez man...this is getting stupid...

If you would read everything I write you'd see that I suggested that VT coaches could get the talent out of those Miami players at the college level. But instead you pick and choose what you want to read because I'm this horrible excuse of a VT fan that has dared to criticize a player (GASP!) and must be disagreed with as much as possible

 

[VTfoozball]

Listen, we are not "dense or stubborn." Insulting people when you don't understand their point is not going to help you. We are taking offense because you were criticizing Newsome's measurables and believing it will affect his ability to succeed at VT when the kid has not even yet to step foot on campus and still has another year of high school left to develop. We are conceding to the coaches because they are paid to do this and have been so successful that its hard to argue with them. You can say that we need to improve our WR recruiting, which is fine, but we just came off our best season in terms of passing and receiving in the Beamer era, so I'd say we're doing a pretty good job. There aren't many Sammy Watkins in the country, so expecting to get them is not realistic. Our best bet for a can't miss WR is Jamil Kamara in the 2014 class who is very high on VT. But you can't force kids to come here. So why deny a kid who wants to play here?

Having complete faith in Newsome just because he was offered a scholarship is not going to help you with me. He is already a notch below someone like North because of his tools. Whether the intangibles make up for the difference between the two remains to be seen. Whether he can make up for his relative lack of size and speed to become a good pro remains to be seen. I would rather the coaches have the toolsy guys to work with because those are things you can't teach. Maybe the other stuff can be taught or changed in a person. I'm just tougher to please I guess. But these recruits in 2012 and so far in 2013 seem to me to be the kind that will at the very least help keep the program where it is.

 

[jgHokie]

Having complete faith in Newsome just because he was offered a scholarship is not going to help you with me. He is already a notch below someone like North because of his tools. Whether the intangibles make up for the difference between the two remains to be seen. Whether he can make up for his relative lack of size and speed to become a good pro remains to be seen. I would rather the coaches have the toolsy guys to work with because those are things you can't teach. Maybe the other stuff can be taught or changed in a person. I'm just tougher to please I guess. But these recruits in 2012 and so far in 2013 seem to me to be the kind that will at the very least help keep the program where it is.

thats the understatement of the century!! impossible is more like it. You sir, are the one that is picking and choosing what you want to hear. YOU CANNOT TEACH intangibles (ie "want to"...character, etc.)...hence the word intangibles. bottom line, the coaches OBVIOUSLY know what they're doing...alot more than you, me, or anyone else on this board knows...pretty sure you're not a head coach..recruiter, or anything of the sort...so ya..i'll take the coach's evaluation on these recruits over what the recruiting sites say about people. man..it's like talking to a brick wall with you...you sure you wanna be a vt fan? i mean i get having an objective point of view, and i can respect that...but you take it to a whole new level...

 

[sparko]

Having complete faith in Newsome just because he was offered a scholarship is not going to help you with me. He is already a notch below someone like North because of his tools. Whether the intangibles make up for the difference between the two remains to be seen. Whether he can make up for his relative lack of size and speed to become a good pro remains to be seen. I would rather the coaches have the toolsy guys to work with because those are things you can't teach. Maybe the other stuff can be taught or changed in a person. I'm just tougher to please I guess. But these recruits in 2012 and so far in 2013 seem to me to be the kind that will at the very least help keep the program where it is.

you think the coaches aren't doing everything they can to get these big time names?? you can't MAKE these kids come to VT? shall we slip them some bitches ?? and maybe some fat rims for their navvy??

virginia tech is in blacksburg, va, in the middle of nowhere and three hours from any REAL metro area .. with miami football sucking balls for the past decade, why do you think they STILL land that "raw" talent?? because it's miami florida!! where women walk around on the beach with their tits hangin out and sweet gonja available at every corner .. not to mention that there's RIDICULOUS 4* talent within 3 hours drive .. if virginia had as many 4+ stars every year like florida/georgia does, we'd be recruiting like they do .. it is what it is .. unless we talk CFB into going the Bama way ... we're sure as hell not gonna turn away 3+ star talent for a long-shot on a 4* .. if the coaches want to save a spot for North, they will ... so don't talk as if we took Newsome over North .. plus -- getting these guys early allows the recruiting efforts to really focus on the BIG prizes, like Fuller ... and the two big'uns the next year ..

 

[bigesse16]

Having complete faith in Newsome just because he was offered a scholarship is not going to help you with me. He is already a notch below someone like North because of his tools. Whether the intangibles make up for the difference between the two remains to be seen. Whether he can make up for his relative lack of size and speed to become a good pro remains to be seen. I would rather the coaches have the toolsy guys to work with because those are things you can't teach. Maybe the other stuff can be taught or changed in a person. I'm just tougher to please I guess. But these recruits in 2012 and so far in 2013 seem to me to be the kind that will at the very least help keep the program where it is.

Well, my faith is not only in the coaches, but based on the film. I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert in evaluating players, but Newsome looks very good with the ball in his hands. But I'm not sure what you want VT to do. I severely doubt North has any intentions coming here. I mean I'd like to land more 5 star and 4 star players, but they have to want to come here. They offered Newsome in November, so there was a reason for it. They weren't going to deny Newsome in hopes of landing North because they know that North is not going to come here.

 

[VTfoozball]

thats the understatement of the century!! impossible is more like it. You sir, are the one that is picking and choosing what you want to hear. YOU CANNOT TEACH intangibles (ie "want to"...character, etc.)...hence the word intangibles. bottom line, the coaches OBVIOUSLY know what they're doing...alot more than you, me, or anyone else on this board knows...pretty sure you're not a head coach..recruiter, or anything of the sort...so ya..i'll take the coach's evaluation on these recruits over what the recruiting sites say about people. man..it's like talking to a brick wall with you...you sure you wanna be a vt fan? i mean i get having an objective point of view, and i can respect that...but you take it to a whole new level...

People can change to a degree and I question how much they really know about a player. But I'm not going to get into that.

Once again players on my wish list are mostly ones that have already been offered by VT. That means they have already been approved by the coaching staff. I'm not unreasonable and wanting all of the 5 stars in the country. No one can tell me that they personally have all of VTs targets on the same level.

 

[Rocky]

If you would read everything I write you'd see that I suggested that VT coaches could get the talent out of those Miami players at the college level. But instead you pick and choose what you want to read because I'm this horrible excuse of a VT fan that has dared to criticize a player (GASP!) and must be disagreed with as much as possible

You make an assumption here that is not in evidence. It is implied by you, and I rightly infer, that you believe the Miami thugs would pass muster on the VT character issues, intelligence issues, academic issues, abstract issues, and other traits that VT uses to rack and stack scholarship candidates likely to have the requisite abilities to be a positive contributor to a major college program.

I, for one, don't think anyone could take the thugs that the U take, and make them any better than the U has. WHY? They dont have the kind of character and personal attributes that VT looks for in players.

 

[jgHokie]

You make an assumption here that is not in evidence. It is implied by you, and I rightly infer, that you believe the Miami thugs would pass muster on the VT character issues, intelligence issues, academic issues, abstract issues, and other traits that VT uses to rack and stack scholarship candidates likely to have the requisite abilities to be a positive contributor to a major college program.

I, for one, don't think anyone could take the thugs that the U take, and make them any better than the U has. WHY? They dont have the kind of character and personal attributes that VT looks for in players.

no no....those are the players we need to get to the next level...character issues, intelligence...etc...none of that matters....as long as he's tall and fast....

 

[Rocky]

Out of the top 25 or so WRs in the NFL, how many are undersized players who outperform their tools like Welker. Exactly. God you people are dense or stubborn I just can't tell which.

The QB position is a totally different position. Unless you are Vick or a blend of size and speed like Vince Young or Cam Newton then how quick or fast you are doesn't matter in the NFL because running won't be an option. Tools aren't important for a QB there. What is important is from the neck up along with having good height.

And another thing...if VT is going to continually have an O-line that is deficient in some way (which I think even you guys have to agree that this is true) then they need to have as much talent as they can at the offensive skill positions.

RB - check
QB - check
WR - uhh no

Need better WRs who can create instant mismatches against almost anyone

Sounds like the most important asset a QB can have in your eyes is TALL. Tools aren't important? Not even worthy of responding to.

Drew Brees, Brett Farve immediately come to mind as hall of fame QBs you would have passed on..

BTW, I listed QBs in response to your continuing assertion that the desired quality isn't there in tech recruits. I simply listed players that were considered dogs, even by NFL personnel, since they passed on them over and over again before drafting them late, or even not drafting them at all

I wrongly assumed that you would be able to discern which of your assertions I was addressing. I know better now.

OK, lets look at WR's, in light of your implication above, that top undersized WRs like Welker don't outperform their "tools". By tools, I take it to mean the simply definition that you seem to be using, physical attributes, like size, speed, and tall. (Too bad you aren't listening about the "other stuff", which most VT kids have over the Miami thugs, that have better "tools", but would never be capable of bringing anything positive to a program.

I'm working on a simple statistical analysis of WRs that were selected by Brian Murtaugh, who put together a list of the Greatest Wide Receiver in each NFL team's history.

Ill post it separately.

 

[Rocky]

The Greatest Wide Receiver in Each NFL Team's History.

In January, 2011, Brian Murtaugh put together a list of the Greatest Wide Receiver in each NFL team's history. His criteria:

"The following list is a breakdown of the best wide receivers to ever play for each of the NFL's current 32 franchises.

The list was built on not only football production but off-the-field character and the impact of each player in the history of their respective franchises.NFL Power Rankings list of the greatest wide receiver in every NFL team's history"

In other words, he used a criteria that fooz is advocating, ie, impact of each player in the history of their franchise. (or recruit on the positive PR for his alma mater)



TEAM PLAYER HEIGHT WEIGHT DRAFT ROUND

Tampa Bay Bucs Keenan McCardell 73 191 12

Chicago Bears Muhsin Muhammad 74 217 2

Jacksonville Jaguars Jimmy Smith 73 213 2

New York Giants Amani Toomer 75 210 2

Seattle Seahawks Steve Largent 71 187 4

Atlanta Falcons Terance Mathis 70 177 6

Detroit Lions Herman Moore 76 210 1

New England Patriots Irving Fryar 72 200 1

Miami Dolphins Mark Clayton 69 177 8

New Orleans Saints Joe Horn 73 206 5

Philadelphia Eagles Harold Carmichael 80 225 7

St. Louis Rams Torry Holt 72 190 1

Denver Broncos Rod Smith 72 200 7

Green Bay Packers Donald Driver 72 188 7

Buffalo Bills Andre Reed 74 190 4

Tennessee Titans Ernest Givins 69 178 2

New York Jets Don Maynard 72 180 9

Kansas City Chiefs Otis Taylor 75 215 4

Houston Texans Andre Johnson 75 219 1

Cincinnati Bengals Chad Johnson 73 192 2

Carolina Panthers Steve Smith 69 185 3

San Diego Chargers Lance ALworth 72 184 2

Baltimore Ravens Derrick Mason 70 190 4

Arizona Cardinals Larry Fitzgerald 75 225 1

Pittsburgh Steelers Hines Ward 72 205 3

Cleveland Browns Paul Warfield 72 188 1

Washington Redskins Art Monk 75 210 1

Oakland Raiders Tim Brown 72 195 1

Indianapolis Colts Marvin Harrison 72 175 1

Dallas Cowboys Michael Irvin 72 175 1

Minnesota Vikings Randy Moss 76 215 1

San Francisco 49ers Jerry Rice 74 200 1


Statistically, the Median for height is exactly 6 ft tall. The average for height is just under 6 ft 1.

Statistically, the Median for weight is 193.5, while the average is 197.25.

The average round taken is 3.34

Statistics were garnered from Pro-Football-Reference.com - Pro Football Statistics and History

One simple take away is that the median is 6 ft even, which means statistically that half are taller, and half are shorter.

Since half of the all time WRs are statistically under 6 ft or under, I do believe that you may infer fooz, that Wes Welker isn't an anomalie at all.

Now, lets look at Deon Newsome's foozball "tools" Deon is the prototypical height for alltime franchise WRs, at 6 ft tall.

175 is a bit light compered to the median of 193.5 that the alltime WRs have, but the kid is still in HS, and will likely end up somewhere around that median weitght too.

So fooz, looks like you gave Newsome a bunch of crap without foundation.

 

[NickVT10]

Fooz, you look at the surface way too much. Football is so much more than being the perfect size because someone says its better to be that size.

 

[VTfoozball]

That list is still a list of 32 players and doesn't take into account everyone. 6 of the 32 are sub 6 feet. Not many. I don't have the 40 times for those 6 but I'd say they are pretty impressive. Newsome is 5'11" I think and we all know how they can "shrink" once they get to VT. I never said Newsome was not going to be good I just think it's going to be a little harder for him since he's not as physically gifted as some of the 4 star targets. Bigger, stronger, faster is always a good thing. It's not everything but it is definitely a plus

 

[HokieGhost]

I never said Newsome was not going to be good I just think it's going to be a little harder for him since he's not as physically gifted as some of the 4 star targets.

In your opinion, and yours alone, Newsome is "not as physically gifted as some of the 4 star targets".

Good thing the Tech coaching staff has a far different opinion than yours. They have done an extensive evaluation of him as a player and person, both on and off the field. I suspect that you have done neither and have no idea what you're talking about. I also suspect that you're basing your opinions on the star-evaluations of the major recruiting services, something the Tech staff doesn't use now, and has never used in the past.

Prove me wrong.

 

[Rocky]

That list is still a list of 32 players and doesn't take into account everyone. 6 of the 32 are sub 6 feet. Not many. I don't have the 40 times for those 6 but I'd say they are pretty impressive. Newsome is 5'11" I think and we all know how they can "shrink" once they get to VT. I never said Newsome was not going to be good I just think it's going to be a little harder for him since he's not as physically gifted as some of the 4 star targets. Bigger, stronger, faster is always a good thing. It's not everything but it is definitely a plus

LOL

The list is of NFL football stars, after completion of their pro careers.

Newsome is a HS Junior.

HELLO

The latest Height/Weight I've seen on Newsome is 6 ft, 175.

Adding the 11 players on the list that are exactly 6ft tall, and the 6 that are below 6 ft, yields 17 out of 32 that Newsome is at least as tall as. In other words, Newsome is at the exact height or taller than most of the all time NFL WRs from that list. Thats a statistic, not an opinion.

He is right on the statistical medium, no matter what you say. Its not an opinion. Its a matter of definition.

Bigger, stronger, faster is NOT always a good thing. The bigger you are, the more work it takes to move you, and the harder your heart and lungs have to work. So, you are slower because you have bypassed your optimum oxygen generation/use point. Thats why most of the WRs on that list are under 200 lbs.

If you are physically sensitive to pain more than the average person, you wont want to run over the middle, looking back, knowing that a LB who weighs 60 lbs more than you is running to knock your head off, and you have to look backwards. Takes a rare person, not necessarily big, fast, and strong, to shut that out.

HS track stars that decide to focus on football over track or basketball, bulk up and get significantly slower. Fact. Ive seen it over and over again. They lose cardio, and trade it for muscle, and plyometric power.

Ronald Curry is a perfect example. HS player of the year in both football and basketball. He picked UVA, which left VT for Vick. Then, Curry decided that he wanted to dual Basketball and Football, stiffed UVA, and went to UNC. Meanwhile, he bulked up for football, and could never play basketball at the same level again.

Faster doesnt really mean squat in a west coast offense. WRs dont need breakaway speed in the West Coast.

The ability to cut at speed is more important. Thats what Parker has, effective football speed, not just track speed. There is a difference. Thats why the combines do the shuttle runs. While not perfect, its something that measures stop and go speed and quickness.

Another major ability that WRs need, is situational awareness. The ability to scan the field, and know what and where everyone is moving to. This will help you find openings and exploit them when the play breaks down. You need to be able to understand your coaching staff when they talk tactics, and lots of these kids can hardly put together a cogent sentence, never mind learn anything that involves logic. They need analytical speed, and it must be inate.

Then there is work ethic, leadership, spirit, likability, and a dozen other things that are at least as important as speed, size, and strength.

You say that Newsome isn't as physically gifted as some of the 4 star players. Rely on someone else's assessment to your detriment. Lots of 4 star recruits are busts, while some no star recruit walkons can be valuable.

Its a lot more convoluted than you realize to assess someones talent.

Ever wonder why olympic 100M runners rarely make it in the NFL?

They hate getting hit, they cant cut, and anything that takes more than 15 seconds is beyond their attention span and work ethic.

 

[TagAndBrag]

Deon is the son of one of Bud Foster's favorite defenders ever, he's all VT, and he's worthy in his own right. Under your criteria, should we have not offered Alston Smith? Not accepted Corey Fuller's transfer? I think you misread the entire "family" identity that is at the core of Frank Beamer's program.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

How's it going over here? I have been out of town? Any issues? Everyone playing nice?