For those who think Trout over miggy

[StanMarsh51]

1) Power hitters tend to score more runs. Jim Thome, Frank Thomas, Manny Ramirez, etc...you've watched baseball outside of Detroit to know that guys who hit 40+ tend to have an easier time scoring 100+ runs, since 40 runs are accounted alone by HRs, no?

2) Shall we look at the guys who hit behind Trout with RISP and runners on?
Trumbo - .222 AVG, .702 OPS w/RISP; /.228 AVG, .750 OPS with runners on
Pujols - .303 AVG, .836 OPS w/RISP ; / .280 AVG, .790 OPS w/runners on
Hamilton - .225 AVG, .624 OPS w/RISP / .224 AVG, .657 OPS w/runners on

You don't having guys like Trumbo/Hamilton hitting behind you will hurt your chances of scoring runs if they hit that poorly w/runners on and RISP? If you think otherwise, I'm not hesitating to say that's the most foolish thing I've read on the board this week (and there's been a lot of foolish things said).

Adding to my prior post is Howie Kendrick, who started 10 games batting 4th, 45 batting 5th, and 57 batting 6th

RISP - .245 AVG, .741 OPS
Runners on - .256 AVG, .683 OPS

 

[da55bums]

...without Miggy they would average about 2 to 2 1/2 runs a game on offense...depending on the 25-30 games Fielder goes deep. If the Tigers keep the same lineup, Miggy will shoulder even more offense because Hunter and VMart cant keep their paces at that age.

Both are MVP canidates 2 years in a row? that means the top 3 offensive players in the AL, maybe baseball....apples or oranges anyone? its really a pointless arguement, they both deserve MVPs.

Trout will overtake Miggy soon enough, most likely in the next year or two and win more MVP titles than Miggy...give it time....voters wanted to see if the first year was a fluke and see how his sophmore year went...now in 2014 if Trout continues to do the same thing and Miggys decline starts hits 35 hrs and .300 (if his groin holds up)...Trout will win it.

absolute great points Stan on Runs scored....just great...

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

2) Shall we look at the guys who hit behind Trout with RISP and runners on?
Trumbo - .222 AVG, .702 OPS w/RISP; /.228 AVG, .750 OPS with runners on
Pujols - .303 AVG, .836 OPS w/RISP ; / .280 AVG, .790 OPS w/runners on
Hamilton - .225 AVG, .624 OPS w/RISP / .224 AVG, .657 OPS w/runners on

But I thought Trout was putting pressure on the pitcher's while he was on base? That'd mean more fastballs for his teammates. Something doesn't add up.

 

[DragonfromTO]

So it is relevant to bring up if Miggy would put up the kind of numbers he does with the Tigers, if he played a team like the Astros (which you did), but when I point out he did exactly that on a Miami team who sold off everyone after his rookie year, when they won the World Series, it is irrelevant?

What is so confusing to you? The award is called the most VALUABLE player. I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing if the LAA were without Mike Trout in 2012 and 2013 -- they would have finished in the same spot they did WITH him on the team. Out of the playoffs.

Mike Trout is a great player and will win a couple MVPs if he continues to play like he has been. In the last 2 years though -- Miguel Cabrera has been the most dominant player in the game. Trout had almost 60 more ABs than Cabrera, yet Cabrera had more hits, more homeruns, more RBI's, a higher OBP, a higher slugging % and a higher OPS. And everyone keeps talking about how Trout creates runs, takes extra bases and steals bases, yet with 60 more ABs, he only scored 6 more runs than Cabrera.

If you are going to have 60 more ABs and hit 25 points lower, with 17 fewer homeruns and 40 less rbi's. You had better be doing something extraordinary to make up that difference. Is Trout a better defensive player? Yeah. But he was nothing special this year. As I stated -- he had exactly zero outfield assists.

And I will say once again -- if you want a stat like WAR to be taken seriously. Use the ACTUAL replacement player to come up with the stat. You take off Miguel Cabrera from the Tigers and replace him with Don Kelly and the Tigers are a COMPLETELY different team. Anyone who actually believes Detroit wins 90 games with Don Kelly replacing Miguel Cabrera is foolish -- and THAT is one of my biggest issues with stats like WAR.

The Marlins averaged 81.2 wins a year during Cabrera's 5 years there. The guys on the Astros' roster last year would have killed for those kind of results.

If Miguel Cabrera was paralyzed and the Tigers needed a third baseman I doubt that they would just start Don Kelly for 162 games. Excellent, healthy players that play at an isolated position are probably less likely to have good backups on their team's depth chart in the first place, because those backups are less likely to be needed. But I'd guess that outfielders are probably likely to have a little better depth behind them as well because the Angels' 4th outfielder isn't just backing up Trout, he's (at least ostensibly) backing up all 3 spots out there. Which means more playing time for him even if no one gets injured or fails, and increases the chances of injury or failure as well.

 

[da55bums]

But I thought Trout was putting pressure on the pitcher's while he was on base? That'd mean more fastballs for his teammates. Something doesn't add up.

lol, spin til ya win...

Miggy puts pressure also on pitchers, they have to give more fastballs to the guys behind him and in front of him thus explains his RBI and Runs totals...what don't you get?

does it just irk you someone could be considered as good or better than Miggy? Its going to happen and you can't stop it. No way you fought this way for Pujols being the best player in the game when he was better than Miggy. The batton gets passed, thats baseball.

Trout at 20 and 21 is Miggy's equal already and he hasn't even physically peaked in the game, its coming regardless how you want to spin it. Trout is inclining and Miggy has peaked and now will decline, it could be slow and still top 5 for a few years or it could crash quickly..just enjoy the personal achevements while he can get them.

 

[StanMarsh51]

But I thought Trout was putting pressure on the pitcher's while he was on base? That'd mean more fastballs for his teammates. Something doesn't add up.

Does it? We could look at lots of great baserunners and probably see that's not always the case.

I randomly took Rickey Henderson's 1984 season, where he had a .399 OBP and 66 steals

The batters behind him w/RISP:
Morgan - .255 AVG, .728 OPS
Lansford - .267 AVG, .698 OPS
Murphy - .221 AVG, .721 OPS
Kingman - .303 AVG, .932 OPS

So 3 of the 4 hitters behind Rickey weren't good w/RISP. Are you going to hold much of that on Rickey, or will we both agree that Rickey provided tremendous value on the bases regardless?

Let's hear you question the 'pressure' Rickey was putting on pitchers when he was on base? How do you not know the hitters would've hit worse than they did if Rickey weren't on base, just as you don't know whether the hitters behind Trout would've hit worse if he weren't on base? Hmm?

 

[DragonfromTO]

But I thought Trout was putting pressure on the pitcher's while he was on base? That'd mean more fastballs for his teammates. Something doesn't add up.

Even though their numbers with men on base were shitty overall Pujols and Trumbo still hit better with men on base than they did with the bases empty. I don't think this "proves" anything generally, just emphasizing that if that is the way that you want to look at it the raw numbers shouldn't be looked at alone.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Does it? We could look at lots of great baserunners and probably see that's not always the case.

I randomly took Rickey Henderson's 1984 season, where he had a .399 OBP and 66 steals

The batters behind him w/RISP:
Morgan - .255 AVG, .728 OPS
Lansford - .267 AVG, .698 OPS
Murphy - .221 AVG, .721 OPS
Kingman - .303 AVG, .932 OPS

So 3 of the 4 hitters behind Rickey weren't good w/RISP. Are you going to hold much of that on Rickey, or will we both agree that Rickey provided tremendous value on the bases regardless?

Seeing as how two of the guys hitting behind Trout have won MVPs and are some of the highest paid players in all of baseball and the 3rd guy has averaged 33 homeruns in his 3 years in the MLB, it is a slightly different.

All I'm saying is -- People are talking about Trout as if he is the greatest player ever to live. You are using one of the greatest base stealers in the history of the game to bring up a comparison. People are talking about his defense, yet he was the only CF in the MLB without an OF assist.

He is a great player, there is no question about it. What is impressive is the numbers he is putting up at his age. He will win a couple MVPs i'm sure during his time. IMO, when you are playing on a team with one of the highest payrolls in baseball and you don't make the playoffs in both years you have played on the team and the guy who won the MVP this year had 17 more homeruns, 40 more rbi's, hit 25 points higher, had a better Slugging %, and a better OPS -- you just WILL NOT win a MVP that way.

If Trout were to win the MVP on a 3rd place team -- he'd be the one who would have to have more homeruns, more rbi's, a better BA, a better Slg%, a better OPS, etc.

 

[Cleaves2000]

do WHAT? Bonds had 7 gold gloves (3 in seasons he won MVP), over 500 SBs...holy crap, what do you call a guy who can field and run the bases?

Hey I agree Miggy was the MVP last year and this year but you blew it with the Bonds statement.

Bonds had 8 gold gloves i believe.....but none after 98......notice i was talking about his 4 yr run of MVP.....i agree the bonds of the 90's was a great all around player.....but i believe most his steals were before his head turned huge.....i doubt he did anything but hit in 2004......i could be wrong, but my last memories of the giants version of bonds was a total different pirate bonds.

 

[Cleaves2000]

Also bonds had a combined total of 35 SB's during his 4 yr run of MVP......i would hardly say bonds was a great baserunner or defender during 2001-2004.

 

[Cleaves2000]

Fielding the ball, baserunning. He plays both sides of the game which is why I like him better. While still hitting at an elite level

Omar infante can field better than miggy.....can also run the bases better also.....while hitting 300......but that doesnt make him the MVP over miggy........theres alot of players who can beat miggy in "picked" stats......miggy IS the MVP. no doubt.....voters seen it that way too.....wasnt even close....

 

[Cleaves2000]

Miggy Cabrera is like Kevin durant of the nba while mike trout is lebron James cause he has a great all around game. Durant can do some other things decently well but trout does everything at a great level. Except his throwing arm

How can miggy be like durant and trout like lebron?

Miggy and lebron are champions......durant has tasted a championship series......trout has yet to even take a post season AB.

 

[Cleaves2000]

Run's scored is an easy one to answer, take a look at total runs scored for the Tigers vs the Angels. Trout hasd to have teammates who can drive in runs. That's what made Trout's numbers even more incredible, Angels as a team, outside of Trout and Trumbo, were pathetic driving in runs. No one ever said Trout had the strongest arm and for the most part base runners didn't really challenge him. He saved lots of runs with his glove and legs though, something Cabrera knows nothing about.

Thats why i choose miggy over trout......trout has to wait for someone to knock him in.....even tho everyones saying how great he is on the base paths....rickey henderson would get on 1st....steal 2nd and 3rd, and score on a SF.....thats great baserunning.....miggy not only scores alot of runs....but he also knocks in runs....so give me the guy that produces over the guy who has to wait and pray for others to hit him in....to me trout isnt very valuable if his teamates are failing to hit with RISP.

 

[navamind]

Seeing as how two of the guys hitting behind Trout have won MVPs and are some of the highest paid players in all of baseball and the 3rd guy has averaged 33 homeruns in his 3 years in the MLB, it is a slightly different.

All I'm saying is -- People are talking about Trout as if he is the greatest player ever to live. You are using one of the greatest base stealers in the history of the game to bring up a comparison. People are talking about his defense, yet he was the only CF in the MLB without an OF assist.

He is a great player, there is no question about it. What is impressive is the numbers he is putting up at his age. He will win a couple MVPs i'm sure during his time. IMO, when you are playing on a team with one of the highest payrolls in baseball and you don't make the playoffs in both years you have played on the team and the guy who won the MVP this year had 17 more homeruns, 40 more rbi's, hit 25 points higher, had a better Slugging %, and a better OPS -- you just WILL NOT win a MVP that way.

If Trout were to win the MVP on a 3rd place team -- he'd be the one who would have to have more homeruns, more rbi's, a better BA, a better Slg%, a better OPS, etc.

Yeah... except their 2013 stats weren't even on par with their MVP seasons. Pujols had a 116 OPS+ this year (he has a career OPS+ of 165, and his career low prior to 2013 was 138 in 2012). Josh Hamilton had an OPS+ of 108. His career OPS+ is 131.

And Tigers fans talk about Miggy as if he's the greatest hitter to ever live.

 

[da55bums]

Yeah... except their 2013 stats weren't even on par with their MVP seasons. Pujols had a 116 OPS+ this year (he has a career OPS+ of 165, and his career low prior to 2013 was 138 in 2012). Josh Hamilton had an OPS+ of 108. His career OPS+ is 131.

And Tigers fans talk about Miggy as if he's the greatest hitter to ever live.

EXACTLY....

 

[da55bums]

Also bonds had a combined total of 35 SB's during his 4 yr run of MVP......i would hardly say bonds was a great baserunner or defender during 2001-2004.

your kidding right? I will just take it that you are, I know your smarter than this...just stirring the pot...funny though..

Bonds...error totals and fielding percentage throughout his career were consistant, one of his best ever fielding years was 2003, even had one of his better years with 11 Assists in 04 and his SB's did go down at 34 yrs old in 1998 (guessing knee surguries and groin problems if I remember correctly, what did miggy have surgury on?)...no shock there...almost EVERY player to play the game's speed diminished in his mid 30's...Bonds was 36-39 yrs old from 01-04, lol...and he still stole more bases in those 4 years than Miggy as stolen in his 10 year career, at 20 yrs old to 30 yrs old...wow, didn't realize that til now.

Miggy's SB's will drop also around 33 or 34 and his baserunning should drop off also, oh wait...

You were right about one thing, he had 8 gold gloves instead of 7, my bad......but its always entertaining to hear from you on topics, Queeves (if you still don't know what that is, I just can't help you anymore, maybe google it)

 

[navamind]

Errors and fielding percentage aren't the greatest ways to evaluate fielding though. Official scorers decide errors. Some players have high fielding percentages, but don't get to very many balls.

FWIW, Bonds actually had a positive UZR/150 in 2002, 2003 and 2004 (UZR only goes back to 2002). DRS has him at +5 IN 2003 and -8 in 2004.

And while Barry wasn't much of a baserunner in his later years, he didn't hit into very many double plays. He grounded into only 21 double plays from 01-04. Miggy grounded into 28 last year. 19 this year.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Omar infante can field better than miggy.....can also run the bases better also.....while hitting 300......but that doesnt make him the MVP over miggy........theres alot of players who can beat miggy in "picked" stats......miggy IS the MVP. no doubt.....voters seen it that way too.....wasnt even close....

Yep, because god knows the rest of Omar Infante's game is comparable to Trout's...

 

[navamind]

Yep, because god knows the rest of Omar Infante's game is comparable to Trout's...

Trout's BA was only 5 points higher!

 

[broncosmitty]

Trout's BA was only 5 points higher!

Omar had the same amount of outfield assists.