For those who think Trout over miggy

[MilkSpiller22]

For those who think trout should win MVP, should Carlos Gomez win the NL MVP??

They both lead their league in WAR and both did not make the playoffs...

 

[Darkstone42]

For those who think trout should win MVP, should Carlos Gomez win the NL MVP??

They both lead their league in WAR and both did not make the playoffs...

Andrew McCutchen leads the NL in WAR...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Andrew McCutchen leads the NL in WAR...

2 different wars maybe McCutchen leads the NL in one... But Gomez leads in all the ones i looked at...

 

[Darkstone42]

2 different wars maybe McCutchen leads the NL in one... But Gomez leads in all the ones i looked at...

I use Fangraphs WAR, but I see now that Gomez's ESPN WAR is 0.8 wins higher than his Fangraphs WAR, but McCutchen's is exactly the same. ESPN must use a more defense/baserunning-heavy formula.

 

[StanMarsh51]

2 different wars maybe McCutchen leads the NL in one... But Gomez leads in all the ones i looked at...

Well it's more than just WAR with Trout...

3rd in AVG
2nd in OBP
4th in SLG
2nd in OPS+
1st in runs
9th in RBI
4th in hits
1st in walks
3rd in total bases
8th in steals
1st in runs created


Gomez' WAR was largely due to him being ridiculously good in the field this year (+38 FRAA). He was good offensively, but not really MVP worthy from the offense side of things.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I use Fangraphs WAR, but I see now that Gomez's ESPN WAR is 0.8 wins higher than his Fangraphs WAR, but McCutchen's is exactly the same. ESPN must use a more defense/baserunning-heavy formula.

SO back to the OP... with the logic people give for Trout to win the MVP, should they extend it to Carlos Gomez??

 

[broncosmitty]

I believe Trout was tied for last, again, in playoff appearances. Not winning.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Well it's more than just WAR with Trout...

3rd in AVG
2nd in OBP
4th in SLG
2nd in OPS+
1st in runs
9th in RBI
4th in hits
1st in walks
3rd in total bases
8th in steals
1st in runs created


Gomez' WAR was largely due to him being ridiculously good in the field this year (+38 FRAA). He was good offensively, but not really MVP worthy from the offense side of things.

I understand that, but for him to win over Miggy and Chris davis the biggest reason people give is because of WAR, and playing a rediculous CF...

 

[StanMarsh51]

I understand that, but for him to win over Miggy and Chris davis the biggest reason people give is because of WAR, and playing a rediculous CF...

I don't think you even need to go into WAR to argue that Trout may have had a better season.

Chris Davis? Trout beat him in...

AVG
OBP
Runs
Steals
Walks
OPS+
Runs created

While playing a more premium defensive position

There, I argued Trout had a better year than Davis without using WAR.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

This is not a trout bashing thread, i think he is on pace to being an all time great if not the best player who ever lived... But to win MVP this season, for a player who did not make the playoffs(i dont care what anyone says this is an important factor), he needs to stand out compared to the other 2... and i just dont think he does that enough...

 

[Darkstone42]

SO back to the OP... with the logic people give for Trout to win the MVP, should they extend it to Carlos Gomez??

I trust Fangraphs WAR a lot more than whatever ESPN does. Fangraphs is pretty much dedicated to improving analytic methods of evaluating and projecting players. The wOBA formula, for example, changes year to year based on the relative values of different kinds of hits in that year's offensive environment (which is where OPS fails). They also recognize shortcomings in the defensive and baserunning metrics.

And by Fangraphs WAR, Cutch is the winner in the NL, and I agree with that.

In the AL, I'm torn between Trout and Cabrera. Trout was the best player in the league by a significant margin, but was that margin large enough to justify giving the award to a player who did not make the playoffs? It's so close, I can't decide.

The fact of the matter is that Trout is an elite hitter (top three), an elite baserunner, and an above average fielder. Cabrera is the best hitter in baseball, but he's useless in the other two major facets of the game, more or less.

 

[broncosmitty]

Why is he considered an elite baserunner?

 

[Darkstone42]

Why is he considered an elite baserunner?

82 steals in 94 attempts over two seasons is pretty darned good.

He also takes first-to-third on singles, second-to-home, and scores on sac flies better than most.

Depending on how much you trust the metric, his baserunning value was fourth in baseball this year.

 

[steveringo]

WAR is nice to look at, but you should not make decisions based solely on one number...

Cargo will get a lot of votes, but I think Lucroy & Segura will take some away from his total...

McCutchen had good teammates, too - but he really stood out more with his 7.5 oWAR (next was Alvarez 3.1)... (Gomez oWAR was 4.1; Segura, 3.7; Lucroy, 3.2)...

 

[StanMarsh51]

82 steals in 94 attempts over two seasons is pretty darned good.

He also takes first-to-third on singles, second-to-home, and scores on sac flies better than most.

3rd best all time percentage among players with 80 stolen base attempts

 

[broncosmitty]

82 steals in 94 attempts over two seasons is pretty darned good.

He also takes first-to-third on singles, second-to-home, and scores on sac flies better than most.

Depending on how much you trust the metric, his baserunning value was fourth in baseball this year.

He had 16 less steals than last year, and was thrown out more. It's my opinion that much of what Trout does gets exaggerated because he is young. (And various other reasons, IMO). I don't think of Alex Rios as an "elite" baserunner, yet his last two seasons were both better than Trouts 2013 season from a base stealing point of view. Part of that could be due to Rios' up and down career, his contract which was almost impossible to live up to, or his something else that I can't quite put my finger on. But I feel Trout gets the benefit of every doubt and credit for some things he shouldn't. (Like his defense)

 

[StanMarsh51]

]He had 16 less steals than last year, and was thrown out more[/B]

And he still had a very good 82.5% success rate in a 'down year'

] I don't think of Alex Rios as an "elite" baserunner, yet his last two seasons were both better than Trouts 2013 season from a base stealing point of view[/B].

Not true. Only his 2013 was better than Trout's from a stealing perspective. Rios in 2012 had a 79.3% rate, lower than Trout's 82.5% in 2013 (and that's with Rios running less).

Rios also has an inconsistent track record when it's come to steals. In 2010-2011 for instance, he went 22/32, a 68.8% rate. Before his career year in steals in 2013, his career rate was under 75%.

Trout's never had anything resembling a 'mediocre' year on the bases.

 

[element1286]

Depends if you really think Gomez is 15 runs better than Cutch at the same position. I can see the argument between the two though, they are actually much closer in WAR than Miggy and Trout, don't see any argument for Miggy over Trout except who played on a winning team.

 

[broncosmitty]

And he still had a very good 82.5% success rate in a 'down year'



Not true. Only his 2013 was better than Trout's from a stealing perspective. Rios in 2012 had a 79.3% rate, lower than Trout's 82.5% in 2013 (and that's with Rios running less).

Rios also has an inconsistent track record when it's come to steals. In 2010-2011 for instance, he went 22/32, a 68.8% rate. Before his career year in steals in 2013, his career rate was under 75%.

Trout's never had anything resembling a 'mediocre' year on the bases.

He's had just two years though. Which is basically what I was saying in the parts of my post you excluded. (My bad on Rios 2012 numbers, looked him up a couple days ago, didn't realize until just now that bbreference but his 2013 splits below his 2013 total). Rios has had plenty of years to prove he's human. My main issue with elevated Trout to greatness is his youth, Im not big on anointing anyone "elite" at anything early on. Not trying to detract from anything he has achieved in the early years of his young career. Just gets to me when a second year player gets Willie Mays comparisons that are widely accepted as not crazy.

 

[da55bums]

I believe Trout was tied for last, again, in playoff appearances. Not winning.

thought season awards had nothing to do with playoffs, not winning? making the playoffs is because of team effort it could be argued, losing in the playoffs isn't because of one person either.

there was a guy Tampa Bay had about 8 years ago that everyone compared to Joe Dimagio after 1 year or 2 in the majors and after getting injuried, don't even know if the guy played again. Trout shouldn't be compared to Willie Mays and really Trouts first 2 seasons can't be compared with anyone's first 2 seasons because it hasn't been done before.

Just like with Miggy...Trout's career could go many ways but he definately and already has gone down in baseball history as the player with the best two seasons to start his career.

There have been plenty of MVPs on teams who did not make the playoffs throughout baseball history and Trout is definately worthy of it if anybody is.

Last year Miggy definately and deservedly won MVP...based on this season, they picked the 3 who exactly it should go down to...and really any of the 3 could win its that close.

Gomes shouldn't be an NL MVP canidate, on the Brewers yes but their are plenty who could warrent it before or equal to Gomes.