For those who think Trout over miggy

[Darkstone42]

He had 16 less steals than last year, and was thrown out more. It's my opinion that much of what Trout does gets exaggerated because he is young. (And various other reasons, IMO). I don't think of Alex Rios as an "elite" baserunner, yet his last two seasons were both better than Trouts 2013 season from a base stealing point of view. Part of that could be due to Rios' up and down career, his contract which was almost impossible to live up to, or his something else that I can't quite put my finger on. But I feel Trout gets the benefit of every doubt and credit for some things he shouldn't. (Like his defense)

He had a down year in stealing bases and was still fourth in the Majors in the baserunning metric. Baserunning isn't just about stealing bases, and Trout does a lot of things well on the bases besides accumulating steals.

 

[broncosmitty]

He had a down year in stealing bases and was still fourth in the Majors in the baserunning metric. Baserunning isn't just about stealing bases, and Trout does a lot of things well on the bases besides accumulating steals.

I absolutely agree that base running is about a lot more than accumulating steals. (Kind of seemed off base that you would mention Cabrera is useless as a fielder and baserunner. Since, when healthy, he's actually a solid agressive runner. No quickness, but a good guy to have on the bases). To me, no player can have a down year in their second season, unless hampered by injuries. (You're talking to the wrong guy about the base running metric)

 

[MilkSpiller22]

thought season awards had nothing to do with playoffs, not winning? making the playoffs is because of team effort it could be argued, losing in the playoffs isn't because of one person either.

there was a guy Tampa Bay had about 8 years ago that everyone compared to Joe Dimagio after 1 year or 2 in the majors and after getting injuried, don't even know if the guy played again. Trout shouldn't be compared to Willie Mays and really Trouts first 2 seasons can't be compared with anyone's first 2 seasons because it hasn't been done before.

Just like with Miggy...Trout's career could go many ways but he definately and already has gone down in baseball history as the player with the best two seasons to start his career.

There have been plenty of MVPs on teams who did not make the playoffs throughout baseball history and Trout is definately worthy of it if anybody is.

Last year Miggy definately and deservedly won MVP...based on this season, they picked the 3 who exactly it should go down to...and really any of the 3 could win its that close.

Gomes shouldn't be an NL MVP canidate, on the Brewers yes but their are plenty who could warrent it before or equal to Gomes.

Making the playoffs is an important stat that factors in... it is not the most important... but "team" stats like runs,RBIs and Wins are just as important as individual stats like Hits, walks, HRs and should be included...

What my goal in this thread is that anyway you cut it Miggy and Trout are very close to eachother... The only reason Trout would ever get the MVP over Miggy is because of his WAR... so if WAR is so important then why do you guys use it only when the stat makes sense to you... Gomez leads the NL in WAR and not only does nobody talk about him as a candidate but when we start talking about him you hear the WAR people backtrack and say well he is only that high because of his defense... if you are a WAR person then it shouldnt matter...

 

[StanMarsh51]

Making the playoffs is an important stat that factors in... it is not the most important... but "team" stats like runs,RBIs and Wins are just as important as individual stats like Hits, walks, HRs and should be included...

What my goal in this thread is that anyway you cut it Miggy and Trout are very close to eachother... The only reason Trout would ever get the MVP over Miggy is because of his WAR... so if WAR is so important then why do you guys use it only when the stat makes sense to you... Gomez leads the NL in WAR and not only does nobody talk about him as a candidate but when we start talking about him you hear the WAR people backtrack and say well he is only that high because of his defense... if you are a WAR person then it shouldnt matter...

As I mentioned earlier, you don't even need to go into WAR to argue for Trout

3rd in AVG
2nd in OBP
4th in SLG
2nd in OPS+
1st in runs
9th in RBI
4th in hits
1st in walks
3rd in total bases
8th in steals w/80%+ rate
1st in runs created
Player a premium defensive position

No WAR up there.

 

[da55bums]

Making the playoffs is an important stat that factors in... it is not the most important... but "team" stats like runs,RBIs and Wins are just as important as individual stats like Hits, walks, HRs and should be included...

What my goal in this thread is that anyway you cut it Miggy and Trout are very close to eachother... The only reason Trout would ever get the MVP over Miggy is because of his WAR... so if WAR is so important then why do you guys use it only when the stat makes sense to you... Gomez leads the NL in WAR and not only does nobody talk about him as a candidate but when we start talking about him you hear the WAR people backtrack and say well he is only that high because of his defense... if you are a WAR person then it shouldnt matter...

although, I am not a WAR person...I see your point...Gomes and even Donaldson could be discussed...based on WAR....but if you want to look at Sabermetrics they both fall out of the top 10.

Trout leads in both 1st and 1st with Miggy 2nd and 6th...McClutch 3rd WAR still 8th in Saber with Goldy 7th and 5th....

if you use just those 2 stats....Trout is easily AL MVP and McClutch barely edges Goldy...if only these two stats are applied

 

[MilkSpiller22]

As I mentioned earlier, you don't even need to go into WAR to argue for Trout

3rd in AVG
2nd in OBP
4th in SLG
2nd in OPS+
1st in runs
9th in RBI
4th in hits
1st in walks
3rd in total bases
8th in steals w/80%+ rate
1st in runs created
Player a premium defensive position

No WAR up there.

Yea and where is Miggy rated in those stats...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Its not about arguing if trouts a great player, it is about arguing whether he should win the MVP over Miggy...

 

[soxfan1468927]

Making the playoffs is an important stat that factors in... it is not the most important... but "team" stats like runs,RBIs and Wins are just as important as individual stats like Hits, walks, HRs and should be included...

What my goal in this thread is that anyway you cut it Miggy and Trout are very close to eachother... The only reason Trout would ever get the MVP over Miggy is because of his WAR... so if WAR is so important then why do you guys use it only when the stat makes sense to you... Gomez leads the NL in WAR and not only does nobody talk about him as a candidate but when we start talking about him you hear the WAR people backtrack and say well he is only that high because of his defense... if you are a WAR person then it shouldnt matter...

You can keep claiming that WAR is the only reason Trout would get the award, but it's akin to closing your eyes, blocking your ears, and screaming.

 

[broncosmitty]

As I mentioned earlier, you don't even need to go into WAR to argue for Trout

3rd in AVG
2nd in OBP
4th in SLG
2nd in OPS+
1st in runs
9th in RBI
4th in hits
1st in walks
3rd in total bases
8th in steals w/80%+ rate
1st in runs created
Player a premium defensive position

No WAR up there.

You listed 11 categories. Miguel Cabrera was ahead of Trout in atleast 7 of them. BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, RBI and Total bases. Trout did have 6 more runs, 20 more walks, 30 more steals(Cabrera did not get thrown out) and 46 more Ks though. You don't need to go to WAR, but it's kind of pointless to go with most of those categories. Unless you're going against Davis.

 

[soxfan1468927]

You listed 11 categories. Miguel Cabrera was ahead of Trout in atleast 7 of them. BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, RBI and Total bases. Trout did have 6 more runs, 20 more walks, 30 more steals(Cabrera did not get thrown out) and 46 more Ks though. You don't need to go to WAR, but it's kind of pointless to go with most of those categories. Unless you're going against Davis.

And Trout did this while playing great defense at a premium position, and being an excellent base runner. No doubt Cabrera is a better hitter, but what makes you think the difference in hitting is more valuable than the difference in defense and base running?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

And Trout did this while playing great defense at a premium position, and being an excellent base runner. No doubt Cabrera is a better hitter, but what makes you think the difference in hitting is more valuable than the difference in defense and base running?

I would agree that it is very close between them 2 without talking about WAR, but once you mention that Miggy brought his team into the playoffs, while trout was unable to, there is no reason to give Trout the MVP... and therefore the only reason Trout would win the MVP OVER Miggy is because of WAR...

 

[soxfan1468927]

I would agree that it is very close between them 2 without talking about WAR, but once you mention that Miggy brought his team into the playoffs, while trout was unable to, there is no reason to give Trout the MVP... and therefore the only reason Trout would win the MVP OVER Miggy is because of WAR...

Or because you think the award is an individual award and therefore playoff appearance shouldn't matter. Your stance is illogical. You just made up a criteria that doesn't exist (playoff appearance) and tried to apply it universally amongst opinions on who should be MVP. If someone believed that the award should simply go to the most valuable player, regardless of team success, they can make an argument without using WAR

 

[broncosmitty]

And Trout did this while playing great defense at a premium position, and being an excellent base runner. No doubt Cabrera is a better hitter, but what makes you think the difference in hitting is more valuable than the difference in defense and base running?

I think Valueable and Outstanding have different meanings. Detroit won the Central, LA of Anaheim in California finished third in the west. You can dislike that playoff appearances factor into value, but they do. (While everyone likes to write Cabrera off as a baserunner, he did manage to score 103 runs. That's 6 less than Trout. Who hit more triples, more doubles and stole or bases. Sometimes speed and base running ability get confused.). Had none of the top three made the playoffs, base running and defense may been important in the conversation. But it's not like MT is a Gold Glover, or even the Angels first choice to play center. He started the season in left. For a reason. And defense isn't something that historically matters in MVP voting. Not like say, offensive power numbers anyway. The voting wasn't even close, as I assumed. (I am surprised Davis finished third though)

 

[navamind]

Not surprised, though I think Trout should have won. There have been far bigger injustices than this though IMO.

Congrats to Miggy. He had another excellent season.

At least Donaldson got some recognition, though I think he should have been 3rd instead of Davis. Can't say I was expecting Crisp to get some votes.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I think Valueable and Outstanding have different meanings. Detroit won the Central, LA of Anaheim in California finished third in the west. You can dislike that playoff appearances factor into value, but they do. (While everyone likes to write Cabrera off as a baserunner, he did manage to score 103 runs. That's 6 less than Trout. Who hit more triples, more doubles and stole or bases. Sometimes speed and base running ability get confused.). Had none of the top three made the playoffs, base running and defense may been important in the conversation. But it's not like MT is a Gold Glover, or even the Angels first choice to play center. He started the season in left. For a reason. And defense isn't something that historically matters in MVP voting. Not like say, offensive power numbers anyway. The voting wasn't even close, as I assumed. (I am surprised Davis finished third though)

Are we talking about who we think should win the award or who the voters believe are the most valuable? They're two separate questions. I don't really care what factors into the official voting or what historically has occurred. The writers are inconsistent. My position doesn't change

 

[broncosmitty]

Are we talking about who we think should win the award or who the voters believe are the most valuable? They're two separate questions. I don't really care what factors into the official voting or what historically has occurred. The writers are inconsistent. My position doesn't change

Your opinion is your opinion. My opinion is my opinion. Had the Angels won their division and Trout had more hits, home runs, RBI, total bases, a better batting average, a higher OBP, etc..... My opinion may have been different.

 

[Darkstone42]

The Diminishing Value of Valuable | FanGraphs Baseball

 

[Darkstone42]

I think Valueable and Outstanding have different meanings. Detroit won the Central, LA of Anaheim in California finished third in the west. You can dislike that playoff appearances factor into value, but they do. (While everyone likes to write Cabrera off as a baserunner, he did manage to score 103 runs. That's 6 less than Trout. Who hit more triples, more doubles and stole or bases. Sometimes speed and base running ability get confused.). Had none of the top three made the playoffs, base running and defense may been important in the conversation. But it's not like MT is a Gold Glover, or even the Angels first choice to play center. He started the season in left. For a reason. And defense isn't something that historically matters in MVP voting. Not like say, offensive power numbers anyway. The voting wasn't even close, as I assumed. (I am surprised Davis finished third though)

In my opinion, runs scored and RBIs are too team-dependent to be really good points of comparison. Run creation, to me, is more about not making outs than anything else. Every time you don't produce an out, you place another runner on base and often advance runners already on base, be that to scoring position or across the plate. This is the value of a player like Joey Votto, and it's also why it is statistically optimal to bat your best hitter second.

As it turns out, Cabrera did create more runs than Trout with his bat. Trout created more than Cabrera with his legs. Regardless of what you say about Cabrera's baserunning aggressiveness (he's smart, so he can do more with his limited speed than others might), he was still near the bottom of the league in baserunning value, whereas Trout was very close to the top. Whether or not you value the stat, that discrepancy relative to the entire league is at least somewhat telling. Trout's defensive metrics were about average, and Cabrera's were near the bottom of the league. Again, even if you don't value metrics, the massive gap in their relative positions is still telling.

When it shakes out, Trout is a better baseball player than Cabrera. Cabrera is a better hitter than Trout. The voters like hitting. And the playoffs. Cabrera wins. But Trout is still the better all-around player.

 

[StanMarsh51]

You listed 11 categories. Miguel Cabrera was ahead of Trout in atleast 7 of them. BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, RBI and Total bases. Trout did have 6 more runs, 20 more walks, 30 more steals(Cabrera did not get thrown out) and 46 more Ks though. You don't need to go to WAR, but it's kind of pointless to go with most of those categories. Unless you're going against Davis.

Why is it pointless to go into those categories? We can take them into context, no?

I mean, is a 1st baseman who hits .300/30/100 with a .900 OPS necessarily better than the shortstop who hits .295/28/95 with a .880 OPS?

If we're using the reasoning I think you're using, it's the 1st basemen since he led in all 4 of the categories. But positional differences would tell you that it's harder to put up those numbers from the shortstop position than at 1B.

 

[Darkstone42]

Park factors also suggest that it's harder to hit in Angel Stadium than Comerica. Take that as you will.