For those who think Trout over miggy

[da55bums]

Yeah, having the best starting rotation in baseball made no difference, it was Miggy and only Miggy.

You could have 5 studs pitching, if you can't score runs, it doesn't matter....ask Oakland A's and Tampa Bay for the last decade.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So how many games better did Cabrera make his teammates?

Probably the same amount of games that trouts defense won Games...

 

[broncosmitty]

So how many games better did Cabrera make his teammates?

This is what has been missing from this thread.

 

[broncosmitty]

Clubhouse presence has nothing to do with MVP. Unless that's why Torii Hunter got votes. Which I highly doubt.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Adding intangibles or "clubhouse presence" is the only way you can successfully argue that Miggy is more valuable than Trout. Numbers are numbers and they clearly support Trout being a better all-around baseball player and, thus, adds more value to his team.

How is intangibles the only reason to vote Miggy over Trout... Miggy had the better offensive season... yes baseball is more than just offense, but that is clearly the most important factor... Defense is very important but honestly how many runs does a good defender save over a bad defender?? It is not like Trout was the best defensive player in baseball...

 

[Wazmankg]

He was though.

But as a counter argument. Say a teams wins their division by 10+ games. How valuable could their "MVP Candidate" possibly be? Their team would have made the playoffs regardless, thus their "value" is greatly diminished.

He was what ? The Tigers won the division by a game and the Angels never seriously contended so it's a moot point this season.

 

[broncosmitty]

The definition of value never mentions the playoffs, it's supposed to measure value. There is no way to have a better season and be less valuable than a player who had a worse season at the same time. You are then using the other players on the team to measure 'value', ie making the playoffs to make the determination.

Without your team making the playoffs, how can you be more Valueable than the best player on another team who did?

This sentence is non-sensical, this isn't an argument, and should never be accepted as an argument.

Well... It's my argument, you're going to just have to deal with it. Like you're going to have to with Cabrera winning his second MVP. Goldschmidt didn't win MVP for the same reason. It's an individual award that is influenced by team performance. World Series MVP's are seldom given to members of the losing team. Again, there is a large difference between Most Valueable and Most Oustanding.

 

[element1286]

How is intangibles the only reason to vote Miggy over Trout... Miggy had the better offensive season... yes baseball is more than just offense, but that is clearly the most important factor... Defense is very important but honestly how many runs does a good defender save over a bad defender?? It is not like Trout was the best defensive player in baseball...

There are some measurements that estimate that. Probably a 1.5 - 2.0 wins better.

 

[broncosmitty]

How is intangibles the only reason to vote Miggy over Trout... Miggy had the better offensive season... yes baseball is more than just offense, but that is clearly the most important factor... Defense is very important but honestly how many runs does a good defender save over a bad defender?? It is not like Trout was the best defensive player in baseball...

It's not like he's the best defensive centerfielder in his division or even on his own team either.

 

[Wazmankg]

There are some measurements that estimate that. Probably a 1.5 - 2.0 wins better.

Yeah gotta love those "estimates". Get back to me when those so-called "stats" can come up with the same number for a player regardless of who's doing the calculation.

 

[element1286]

It's not like he's the best defensive centerfielder in his division or even on his own team either.

And Cabrera is arguably the worst defensive third basement in baseball, certainly bottom 5.

 

[element1286]

Yeah gotta love those "estimates". Get back to me when those so-called "stats" can come up with the same number for a player regardless of who's doing the calculation.

Sure, but you are asking the impossible but if you don't believe Trout is a defensive plus, and Cabrera is enormous defensive negative, you are kidding yourself.

 

[broncosmitty]

And Cabrera is arguably the worst defensive third basement in baseball, certainly bottom 5.

Well, I really doubt that. Even if he was, what does that matter? When the season started he was Detroit's second best infielder. (That's not argueable, it's the truth). It didn't matter, as he's the best hitter in baseball and his team was easily in control of their division from June on. When defensive wizards start getting 20 million a season I might start to believe defense is valued like offense is.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

And Cabrera is arguably the worst defensive third basement in baseball, certainly bottom 5.

Cabrera might not have great range, but he made the plays that he could make... Not saying he is a good defender, but i dont think he costed the team that much for his poor defense... Nor am i sold that helped his team that much solely on defense... But even if you are correct with your estimation that Trout won 2 more games because of his defense, and lets say miggy lost the same amount(both are probably going with the maximum numbers), that is only a 4 win difference... And we all agree that Miggy had the better offensive year(not by much), so lets say that miggy won one more game than Trout for offense(includes baserunning)... then that is Trout winning 3 more games. That is not a very significant number... So if you include the fact that Miggy made the playoffs, while Trout did not how can you give it to trout if the difference is so close to begin with...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If 2 players are close then you have to give it to the player who made the playoffs... you may not like it but making the playoffs is a statistic as well and should be included in analysis... I do believe that most of us would agree that if the angels made the playoffs then Trout would probably win over Miggy...

 

[element1286]

Cabrera might not have great range, but he made the plays that he could make... Not saying he is a good defender, but i dont think he costed the team that much for his poor defense... Nor am i sold that helped his team that much solely on defense... But even if you are correct with your estimation that Trout won 2 more games because of his defense, and lets say miggy lost the same amount(both are probably going with the maximum numbers), that is only a 4 win difference... And we all agree that Miggy had the better offensive year(not by much), so lets say that miggy won one more game than Trout for offense(includes baserunning)... then that is Trout winning 3 more games. That is not a very significant number... So if you include the fact that Miggy made the playoffs, while Trout did not how can you give it to trout if the difference is so close to begin with...

A three win difference is gigantic.

 

[element1286]

Well, I really doubt that. Even if he was, what does that matter? When the season started he was Detroit's second best infielder. (That's not argueable, it's the truth). It didn't matter, as he's the best hitter in baseball and his team was easily in control of their division from June on. When defensive wizards start getting 20 million a season I might start to believe defense is valued like offense is.

Why do you doubt that? He doesn't even pass the eye test.

 

[jalopy]

Cabrera might not have great range, but he made the plays that he could make... Not saying he is a good defender, but i dont think he costed the team that much for his poor defense... Nor am i sold that helped his team that much solely on defense... But even if you are correct with your estimation that Trout won 2 more games because of his defense, and lets say miggy lost the same amount(both are probably going with the maximum numbers), that is only a 4 win difference... And we all agree that Miggy had the better offensive year(not by much), so lets say that miggy won one more game than Trout for offense(includes baserunning)... then that is Trout winning 3 more games. That is not a very significant number... So if you include the fact that Miggy made the playoffs, while Trout did not how can you give it to trout if the difference is so close to begin with...

You need to get out and watch some games if you don't think that Miggy cost his teams games with his defense.

And we don't all agree that Miggy had a better offensive year. His offensive WAR was a full point (game) behind Trout.

And I don't include the fact that the Tigers made the playoffs. It is 100% irrelevant when determining value.

 

[da55bums]

Miggy's "intangeble" is he hits the ball, a lot and hard, and others want to try and do the same. Well most others. He is known for not saying much at all in the clubhouse. Others tigers have even said, "well, he is a quite leader he is not a rah rah leader"

Miggy is more like Ted Williams mentality, he just wants to hit the ball and get paid for it and doesn't understand why others can't do it the same way.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

A three win difference is gigantic.

I made up numbers though, so it is irrelevant... the point is still if 2 players are close you have to give it to the one who made the playoffs... Making the playoffs is a very important stat for any player...