For those who think Trout over miggy

[DragonfromTO]

I hate to say it, but Dougie actually made a really good point. Last year, when the Angels needed Trout the most -- he had his worst month of the season, while the Angels had their best month of the season (W/L wise).

This year -- The Angels were never really in the race to win anything. They finished 18 games out of 1st in their own division.

Also -- for anyone talking about WAR -- i'm still waiting to hear a response. Cabrera's "replacement" at 3rd base is Don Kelly. A career .227 hitter with a .634 OPS. When I read people saying Trout's WAR is this and Trout's WAR is that -- You tell me, replacing 44 homeruns, 138 rbis, .344 BA and 1.078 OPS with Don Kelly is only going to result in a 5 game swing in the standings -- I can't help but laugh.

That is why I am not a fan of some of the sabermetric stats. I think some of them are very useful. Others are nothing more than hypothetical guesses at what would happen. If they wanted to give a truly accurate WAR -- they should look at who will replace the player on his own team, instead using a predetermined set of averages.

There was a response that you just chose not to read. Kelly can be considered sub-replacement level because if the Tigers needed to replace Cabrera for any reasonable period of time they wouldn't use Kelly, they'd get someone else. I suspect that part of the reason that Kelly is being used as Cabrera's backup is because the Tigers (correctly) believe that he won't actually have to play there much and he can also play other positions and fill other roles, which makes him a more useful bench player than the 35th best 3rd baseman would be.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

There was a response that you just chose not to read. Kelly can be considered sub-replacement level because if the Tigers needed to replace Cabrera for any reasonable period of time they wouldn't use Kelly, they'd get someone else. I suspect that part of the reason that Kelly is being used as Cabrera's backup is because the Tigers (correctly) believe that he won't actually have to play there much and he can also play other positions and fill other roles, which makes him a more useful bench player than the 35th best 3rd baseman would be.

Since Don Kelly isn't Cabrera's replacement -- how about you tell me who his replacement is. Are you saying that Cabrera's "replacement" that dictates his WAR rating is not even on the Tigers roster? Does that make any sense?

 

[da55bums]

really? september -- Cabrera had 1 home run and 7 rbi's. the home run was his ONLY extra base hit in 23 games played. in 11 playoffs games, he had 2 homeruns and 7 rbi's.

so you can say the PLAYOFFS was his worst month, but he was brutal down the stretch, when the sports hernia stopped allowing him to use his legs at all with his swing.

like normal you left out most of the " truth"..

11 playoff game....batting average was what .260? .262? only what 90 points below his season average? His OBP and OPS? He must have hit just like tigers fans expected.

Hold it my bad just realized something, yep, your right his 2 hr and 7 rbis, miggy is a dominate force of nature, he will go down as the greatest ever...

I give, you win, carry on, realized I must have clicked something off, got it back on.

 

[gvsulaker82]

You need to get out and watch some games if you don't think that Miggy cost his teams games with his defense.

And we don't all agree that Miggy had a better offensive year. His offensive WAR was a full point (game) behind Trout.

And I don't include the fact that the Tigers made the playoffs. It is 100% irrelevant when determining value.

Playoffs are included in how valuable you are as a player. Take miggy off of the tigers and you saw how awful and complacent their team was, he provided the most value to their team, much more than trout and davis. Not to mention his numbers were even better than last years and he played an entire month injured. There shouldnt have been an argument this year or last year. The voters agree, he dominated.

 

[navamind]

Since Don Kelly isn't Cabrera's replacement -- how about you tell me who his replacement is. Are you saying that Cabrera's "replacement" that dictates his WAR rating is not even on the Tigers roster? Does that make any sense?

Don't criticize something if you don't know how the fuck it works.

What is WAR? | FanGraphs Sabermetrics Library

There's also plenty of other links there too.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Don't criticize something if you don't know how the fuck it works.

What is WAR? | FanGraphs Sabermetrics Library

There's also plenty of other links there too.

What am I missing -- this is the exact definition taken off the site you provided. Don Kelly IS the player off the bench who would replace Cabrera. I'd bet my life Detroit drops more than 5 games in the standings if Don Kelly were the Tigers 3rd basemen for the year.

WAR basically looks at a player and asks the question, “If this player got injured and their team had to replace them with a minor leaguer or someone from their bench, how much value would the team be losing?” This value is expressed in a wins format, so we could say that Player X is worth +6.3 wins to their team while Player Y is only worth +3.5 wins.

 

[StanMarsh51]

So all it takes to win the MVP on a losing team is to lead the league in home runs, 2nd in RBI's, lead the league in runs scored and total bases, while winning a gold glove at Shortstop.

Trout has the lead the league in runs scored down -- he just needs to add the rest and move to shortstop and he is a shoe in.

Then again, the voters are inconsistent as hell, so I wouldn't take any decision they make as 'what it would take to win' since they seem to change their criteria whenever it's convenient for the candidate they like best.

In the 2000s, 5x have players won MVPs in seasons their teams didn't make the playoffs (A-Rod, Pujols, Howard, Bonds 2x). Miguel Cabrera's finished top 5 in MVP in 5 seasons where he didn't make the playoffs, including 2010 where he received first place votes over Hamilton in a season the Tigers didn't make the playoffs.

So the voters just pick and choose whatever's convenient to them that particular year. And it probably wasn't the sabermetric liking writers who voted for Cabrera in 2010, since Hamilton's WAR was much better. Some clown also gave Cabrera a 1st place vote over Mauer in 2009 when the Tigers didn't make the playoffs (maybe Dougie had a vote).

So yea, if we needed one word to describe what the writers do, it'll be either inconsistent or hypocritical.

 

[broncosmitty]

In case anyone was wondering, Omar Infante hasn't played in the outfield since 2010. 21 games, 1 assist and an error. Just if anyone was wondering.

 

[Ronnie]

I'm right - you are wrong. neener, neener

 

[StanMarsh51]

Thats why i choose miggy over trout......trout has to wait for someone to knock him in.....even tho everyones saying how great he is on the base paths....rickey henderson would get on 1st....steal 2nd and 3rd, and score on a SF.....thats great baserunning.....miggy not only scores alot of runs....but he also knocks in runs....so give me the guy that produces over the guy who has to wait and pray for others to hit him in....to me trout isnt very valuable if his teamates are failing to hit with RISP.

Oh come on now....the guy had 97 RBI despite 2/3 the season batting 1st or 2nd, and you're acting like he was a 8 HR, 50 RBI guy.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Since Don Kelly isn't Cabrera's replacement -- how about you tell me who his replacement is. Are you saying that Cabrera's "replacement" that dictates his WAR rating is not even on the Tigers roster? Does that make any sense?

Let me put it this way. Hypothetically, given a choice between the 31st best third baseman and the 75th best third baseman who can also play 3 or 4 other positions and pinch run for you which player would you carry on your bench if you had a starting third baseman that you expected to play 155+ games a year for you?

If Miggy got seriously hurt, the Tigers would make a move and get someone else to play 3B every day. And they wouldn't have to give up much of anything to get someone better than Don Kelly.

 

[broncosmitty]

How dare you talk of Don Kelly in such a way!?!(Ramon Santiago is also, sorta, kinda, the backup up third baseman. And you can talk about him however you so choose.)

 

[DragonfromTO]

How dare you talk of Don Kelly in such a way!?!(Ramon Santiago is also, sorta, kinda, the backup up third baseman. And you can talk about him however you so choose.)

Hey, I kind of like Don Kelly actually. And when you own and manage sim league teams you start to have a real appreciation for the usefulness of that type of guy. But he's just not a guy that's gonna get 500 ABs at 3B on pretty much any MLB team, no matter what happens. He can do a few things for you and help you get more value out of a single bench spot though.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

like normal you left out most of the " truth"..

11 playoff game....batting average was what .260? .262? only what 90 points below his season average? His OBP and OPS? He must have hit just like tigers fans expected.

Hold it my bad just realized something, yep, your right his 2 hr and 7 rbis, miggy is a dominate force of nature, he will go down as the greatest ever...

I give, you win, carry on, realized I must have clicked something off, got it back on.

What does his season stats have to do with anything? My statement was, his worst MONTH was september. He hit .278 with 1 homerun and 7 rbi's in 23 games -- the one HR was his ONLY extra basehit. YOU are the one who said the "PLAYOFFS" was his worst month, where he had 2 hr's and the same amount of RBI's in 12 less games. Here is your quote:

lol, dude....Miggie's worst month of the season was in the PLAYOFFS...hilarious...forget it, you can't fix homerizm...good luck..

NOWHERE did you hear me say Cabrera was a force of anything in the playoffs?!?! Once again, you are talking about absolutely nothing and just making stuff up as you go.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Oh come on now....the guy had 97 RBI despite 2/3 the season batting 1st or 2nd, and you're acting like he was a 8 HR, 50 RBI guy.

He had 50 games in the 3 hole and had 27 rbi's. He only had 18 games all season where he batted lead off.

 

[StanMarsh51]

He had 50 games in the 3 hole and had 27 rbi's. He only had 18 games all season where he batted lead off.

Which is why I said he played 2/3 season batting 1st or 2nd, which is accurate, no?

When Trout started batting 3rd in August when Pujols got hurt and was done for the year, the #1-2 hitters consisted primarily of the combination of Schuck/Aybar, with some others getting a few games but nothing significant.

The last 5 weeks of the season, Aybar and Schub had a .271 and .323 OBP respectively, with each slugging well under .400.

We all know RBIs are heavily factored by the guys in front of you...so what do you think happens when the 2 guys in front of you collectively have an OBP around .300?

 

[StanMarsh51]

Which is why I said he played 2/3 season batting 1st or 2nd, which is accurate, no?

When Trout started batting 3rd in August when Pujols got hurt and was done for the year, the #1-2 hitters consisted primarily of the combination of Schuck/Aybar, with some others getting a few games but nothing significant.

The last 5 weeks of the season, Aybar and Schub had a .271 and .323 OBP respectively, with each slugging well under .400.

We all know RBIs are heavily factored by the guys in front of you...so what do you think happens when the 2 guys in front of you collectively have an OBP around .300?

Just realized that Colin Cowgill had 103 at bats batting 1st and 2nd combined with most of those taking place the last 2 months of the season when Pujols went down, so let's add him to the list...

Cowgil had a .169 OBP batting leadoff in 71 plate appearances, and .290 OBP batting 2nd in 32 plate appearances


I can't find a place where to get batting order splits by month (must be somewhere on baseballreference), but from those 3 players mentioned, we can reasonably guess that the collective #1 and 2 Angels OBP those last few weeks of the season when Trout batting 3rd was under .300

 

[broncosmitty]

Hey, I kind of like Don Kelly actually. And when you own and manage sim league teams you start to have a real appreciation for the usefulness of that type of guy. But he's just not a guy that's gonna get 500 ABs at 3B on pretty much any MLB team, no matter what happens. He can do a few things for you and help you get more value out of a single bench spot though.

He's my favorite player. (I know that makes me sound like an eleven year old, but it is what it is.)Love his versatility in the field. Solid baserunner. Sneaky pop and a good eye at the plate. (This is all relative to being the 25th man on the roster) But yeah.... He sure as hell isn't going to be an everyday starter for too long. Starting actually diminishes his value, if that makes sense. As his most Valueable asset is providing piece of mind. (Pardon my ignorance, but....What's a sim league team?)

 

[navamind]

He's my favorite player. (I know that makes me sound like an eleven year old, but it is what it is.)Love his versatility in the field. Solid baserunner. Sneaky pop and a good eye at the plate. (This is all relative to being the 25th man on the roster) But yeah.... He sure as hell isn't going to be an everyday starter for too long. Starting actually diminishes his value, if that makes sense. As his most Valueable asset is providing piece of mind. (Pardon my ignorance, but....What's a sim league team?)

Simulation league

 

[da55bums]

Just realized that Colin Cowgill had 103 at bats batting 1st and 2nd combined with most of those taking place the last 2 months of the season when Pujols went down, so let's add him to the list...

Cowgil had a .169 OBP batting leadoff in 71 plate appearances, and .290 OBP batting 2nd in 32 plate appearances


I can't find a place where to get batting order splits by month (must be somewhere on baseballreference), but from those 3 players mentioned, we can reasonably guess that the collective #1 and 2 Angels OBP those last few weeks of the season when Trout batting 3rd was under .300

Stan, will save you time, TrustMe is like Dougie but uses the numbers he likes, not all the numbers, just the ones that make his point true...

But feel free and good luck, lol