For those who think Trout over miggy

[broncosmitty]

Quote:
Originally Posted by broncosmitty
When have you ever bothered to debate anyone? For years you've subjected our team boards with your arrogance. You're such a repugnant little prick that you get tossed off boards for being an ass rather than debating those whom you deem as lesser than yourself for some reason. (The debate was over the day this thread started. There was a vote. None of our ballots were counted for some reason.)

jalopy answers: This is a forum for discussing opposing opinions and the problem is you want people to reinforce your views. Then you throw tantrums and start with the name calling.


jalopy hits the nail on the head! We all do that on occasion.....but Mr. Smitty seems to have problems with a lot of people who don't do/say as he wants. He seems to have some paradigm or mold we have to all fit, in order to please him. It seems it isn't so much WHAT we say, but HOW we say it that is important to him. He goes on about crap that happened a long time ago and then goes into the "I'm almost done with this place" rant. Of course, on the Tiger board, he is waiting for "Tag-Along Muzz" (his long time companion) to come and reinforce his thoughts. Broaden your scope, pal. It is possible to learn things from those you dislike, fear, or that irritate you.

Funny that you'd tag along with the Robin to your Batman here. It's you two that I have a problem with as far as Tigers and baseball are concerned.(I have all your trolling ids on ignore, so it's not an issue) I have no problem disagreeing with people or being in the minority on an opinion. It happens quite often on a great deal of threads, but sometimes those threads happen to be on boards you two have been banned from. So I can understand how it's slipped past you. (It's also funny that you can't make a post with mentioning muzz. Maybe stalk cleeves a little more also and see how that works out for you again this time.). I do have a problem with a guy calling a poster a woman and a clown and then taking offense to me throwing this back in his arrogant direction.

 

[Ronnie]

Excuse me a moment....I need to get another swizzle stick...I wore the last one out.

 

[jalopy]

Funny that you'd tag along with the Robin to your Batman here. It's you two that I have a problem with as far as Tigers and baseball are concerned.(I have all your trolling ids on ignore, so it's not an issue) I have no problem disagreeing with people or being in the minority on an opinion. It happens quite often on a great deal of threads, but sometimes those threads happen to be on boards you two have been banned from. So I can understand how it's slipped past you. (It's also funny that you can't make a post with mentioning muzz. Maybe stalk cleeves a little more also and see how that works out for you again this time.). I do have a problem with a guy calling a poster a woman and a clown and then taking offense to me throwing this back in his arrogant direction.

Anyway, how about the issue at hand? It seems like Miggy's defenders (aka- Tiger fans) rely on the fact that he has won the award twice via the BBWAA vote. Trout's defenders (aka- baseball fans) rely on imperical data to make their case. Like it or not, the new metrics are here to stay and the data that supplies them is only going to get better. As it becomes more accepted, the writers will have to conform. We will never have a perfect system to judge valuable until the more is better defined by baseball. I think it's ambiguity has served baseball well but the simple fact that Trout challenged Miggy in a year he won the triple crown is progress enough or me.

As for me getting banned, it was for one day and Hammer has publicly admitted he made a mistake and overreacted while under the influence. It had nothing to do with a Tigers board than I infrequently visit.

All I would ask is for posters to have an open mind and actually read counter-arguments before posting. If your mind is closed, there is no sense to be here other than to reinforce your beliefs. That is a classic waste of time and lacks entertainment for anyone.

 

[jalopy]

I know what what total chances are -- it still doesn't add up. He had 283 total chances. He had 24 double plays on the year. Where does the 227 balls in his zone come from?

I think the greater point is being overlooked through the minutiae. Miggy has very limited range causing his pitching staff to incur hits that otherwise could be putouts. In addition, when he does get to the ball, his fielding percentages indicate he is nothing more than average. I don't penalize him as much as others simply because he is playing out of position for the overall benefit of the team.

My question to the (others) pro Trout camp is how would Miggy rate if he were still at first base. Would the negatives in the defensive categories still weigh on him as much?

 

[jdwills126]

Miggy was an above average 1b.

But as a fan I still think Miggy was the Most Valuable Player! Detroit does not make the playoffs without him. IMO Cabrera was more valuable to Detroit than Trout was to the Angels!

But it appears people want to discount Tiger fans as being biased?

Stats can lie or be manipulated. WAR is a subjective stat.

What stat can fans point to that shows how Prince Fielders sub par year hurt pitch selection for Cabrera? Or V Marts poor first half performance influenced how teams approached the middle of Detroit's order?

 

[broncosmitty]

Anyway, how about the issue at hand? It seems like Miggy's defenders (aka- Tiger fans) rely on the fact that he has won the award twice via the BBWAA vote. Trout's defenders (aka- baseball fans) rely on imperical data to make their case. Like it or not, the new metrics are here to stay and the data that supplies them is only going to get better. As it becomes more accepted, the writers will have to conform. We will never have a perfect system to judge valuable until the more is better defined by baseball. I think it's ambiguity has served baseball well but the simple fact that Trout challenged Miggy in a year he won the triple crown is progress enough or me.

As for me getting banned, it was for one day and Hammer has publicly admitted he made a mistake and overreacted while under the influence. It had nothing to do with a Tigers board than I infrequently visit.

All I would ask is for posters to have an open mind and actually read counter-arguments before posting. If your mind is closed, there is no sense to be here other than to reinforce your beliefs. That is a classic waste of time and lacks entertainment for anyone.

This is definitely a waste of time. (Nobody is changing their stance, these are two different camps for the most part.) If you think I consider Miggy the correct choice for MVP on account of my Tigerfandom, you're mistaken.(See NL MVP discussions were I discussed Goldy's huge disadvantage prior to the vote being released, see numerous other threads where MVP has came up and I've said the same.) I actually, honestly, believe that a player who leads his team to the playoffs is inherently more "Valueable" than one who doesn't.(obviously there can be exceptions, just wasn't the case this season. It was closer last season, but still not enough IMO) I also think RBI is valid stat. And view power numbers as something an opponant fears more than a speed baserunner and groundcovering outfielder.(Ill admit I allow team performance to dictate a players value to a certain degree). After pages and pages of back and forth I don't feel differently than I did before. There would be a much better debate if this was MOP, not MVP, that's being discussed. I'd also support that award. (I've asked before, but isn't The Hank basically MOP?). If you consider yourself more of a baseball fan based off seing Trout as having a more Valueable season than Miggy I'd recommend re-reading my previous post and checking your ego.

 

[Cleaves2000]

Why don't we look at what was actually hit in Cabrera's zone then, and how many he got to? Would that shed some light on his range?

Comparing Cabrera to guys who had a similar # of balls hit in their zone...

Cabrera had 227 balls hit in his zone this year and made 149 plays
Juan Uribe had 218 balls hit in his zone, and made 181 plays
Chris Johnson had 241 balls hit in his zone and made 172 plays
David Wright had 237 balls hit in his zone and made 177 plays
Trevor Plouffe had 227 balls hit in his zone and made 165 plays
Todd Frazier had 244 balls hit in his zone and made 178 plays

So all of these guys had a similar # of balls hit in their zone, but Cabrera got to significantly less than them.

My question is....how do they set the zone? On every pitch does the zone move? If miggys guarding the line does the zone move? If hes playing in looking for a bunt, does his zone shrink? If he shades towards 2B because of a LH hitter does it change? Just seems sort of hard to decide where a zone is at.

 

[jalopy]

Miggy was an above average 1b. Not so sure I buy this. I would put put it as less of a liability.

But as a fan I still think Miggy was the Most Valuable Player! Detroit does not make the playoffs without him. IMO Cabrera was more valuable to Detroit than Trout was to the Angels! I'm not sure I disagree with you, especially if you discount his September due to injury.

But it appears people want to discount Tiger fans as being biased? Not completely, but you have to admit there isn't a lot of Miggy supporters in this fight outside of Detroit.

Stats can lie or be manipulated. WAR is a subjective stat. Very much agree. But there are other indicators such as RC27 and wOBA that indicate if Trout and Cabrera played on similar teams, Trout would be the greater asset.

What stat can fans point to that shows how Prince Fielders sub par year hurt pitch selection for Cabrera? Or V Marts poor first half performance influenced how teams approached the middle of Detroit's order? Prince had a sub-par season only by his standards. He still was a huge asset hitting behind Cabrera. You want to talk about bad seasons, look at Hamilton or Pujols (or the Angels staff)

See Above.

 

[Cleaves2000]

Anyway, how about the issue at hand? It seems like Miggy's defenders (aka- Tiger fans) rely on the fact that he has won the award twice via the BBWAA vote. Trout's defenders (aka- baseball fans) rely on imperical data to make their case. Like it or not, the new metrics are here to stay and the data that supplies them is only going to get better. As it becomes more accepted, the writers will have to conform. We will never have a perfect system to judge valuable until the more is better defined by baseball. I think it's ambiguity has served baseball well but the simple fact that Trout challenged Miggy in a year he won the triple crown is progress enough or me.

As for me getting banned, it was for one day and Hammer has publicly admitted he made a mistake and overreacted while under the influence. It had nothing to do with a Tigers board than I infrequently visit.

All I would ask is for posters to have an open mind and actually read counter-arguments before posting. If your mind is closed, there is no sense to be here other than to reinforce your beliefs. That is a classic waste of time and lacks entertainment for anyone.

So youre trying to tell me ONLY tiger fans defend cabrera for MVP? Seems if that was a case, there would be an uproar about it....im sure theres alot more non tiger fans out there......funny that when miggy won MVP.....jim rose on ABC7 chicago announced it as " no surprise as miguel cabrera took home the AL MVP today" .....and that guy hates anything detroit.

 

[Wazmankg]

Anyway, how about the issue at hand? It seems like Miggy's defenders (aka- Tiger fans) rely on the fact that he has won the award twice via the BBWAA vote. Trout's defenders (aka- baseball fans) rely on imperical data to make their case. Like it or not, the new metrics are here to stay and the data that supplies them is only going to get better. As it becomes more accepted, the writers will have to conform. We will never have a perfect system to judge valuable until the more is better defined by baseball. I think it's ambiguity has served baseball well but the simple fact that Trout challenged Miggy in a year he won the triple crown is progress enough or me.

As for me getting banned, it was for one day and Hammer has publicly admitted he made a mistake and overreacted while under the influence. It had nothing to do with a Tigers board than I infrequently visit.

All I would ask is for posters to have an open mind and actually read counter-arguments before posting. If your mind is closed, there is no sense to be here other than to reinforce your beliefs. That is a classic waste of time and lacks entertainment for anyone.

Who are these baseball fans you speak of ? Every fan poll I saw both years picked Miggy in a landslide.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Anyway, how about the issue at hand? It seems like Miggy's defenders (aka- Tiger fans) rely on the fact that he has won the award twice via the BBWAA vote. Trout's defenders (aka- baseball fans) rely on imperical data to make their case. Like it or not, the new metrics are here to stay and the data that supplies them is only going to get better. As it becomes more accepted, the writers will have to conform. We will never have a perfect system to judge valuable until the more is better defined by baseball. I think it's ambiguity has served baseball well but the simple fact that Trout challenged Miggy in a year he won the triple crown is progress enough or me.

As for me getting banned, it was for one day and Hammer has publicly admitted he made a mistake and overreacted while under the influence. It had nothing to do with a Tigers board than I infrequently visit.

All I would ask is for posters to have an open mind and actually read counter-arguments before posting. If your mind is closed, there is no sense to be here other than to reinforce your beliefs. That is a classic waste of time and lacks entertainment for anyone.

Hey Jalopy, i am a miggy supporter(he deserved to win the MVP) I am a Yankee fan, and we had a discussion about statistics earlier, whether you liked my findings or not i have shown you that you can use logic and statistics to prove Miggy to be MVP... and I am a strong believer that you new statistic people are wrong to dismiss old statistics... And i see there to be no way Trout belongs the winner over Miggy... And by the way to answer your question to where Hanley landed in my system- he was a top 10 NL MVP guy... and after editing again(said i had to because of the addition of Games as a factor) votto was no longer MVP...

 

[Cleaves2000]

How the heck do you do that when you are at the ballpark as much as you are. not to mention attending Lions and Spartan games. When do you have the time for your hip-hop. And troll on message boards.

27 out of 162 is a statistically sufficient number of games, meaning that suffering through watching Miggy struggle at 3rd is not going to be any different in the other 135. Miggy is a great hitter and a below average 1st baseman. His attempt at 3rd this year was laughable and likely didn't help his injury.

Funny how i got blasted for side stepping a question, but yet jalopy wont answer me....

Where did i say im at the lions and spartans games all the time? And what does going to spartan games have to do with watching baseball?

And whats my hip-hop?

 

[jalopy]

After pages and pages of back and forth I don't feel differently than I did before. There would be a much better debate if this was MOP, not MVP, that's being discussed. I'd also support that award. (I've asked before, but isn't The Hank basically MOP?). If you consider yourself more of a baseball fan based off seing Trout as having a more Valueable season than Miggy I'd recommend re-reading my previous post and checking your ego.

I guess my point is that I don't quite understand the difference between MOP and MVP. I don't understand how a player that performs better on the field can somehow be less valuable. I understand the playoff argument and I agree that Detroit might not have made it without Miggy but the same can be said of Scherzer, JV, Sanchez, etc..

If Miggy and Trout switched teams (batting purposes only), do you really feel that the Angels would have made the playoffs or even had a better record? I realize it is a futile exercise because of the style and position differences but that is what sabermetrics attempts to do.

 

[Cleaves2000]

Who are these baseball fans you speak of ? Every fan poll I saw both years picked Miggy in a landslide.

I know i heard almost everyone pick miggy....unless hes talking about this ONE thread.

 

[jalopy]

Funny how i got blasted for side stepping a question, but yet jalopy wont answer me....

Where did i say im at the lions and spartans games all the time? And what does going to spartan games have to do with watching baseball?

And whats my hip-hop?

There really isn't anything to answer. You make ridiculous boasts about how much baseball you watch while being an avid Lions and Spartan fan. I don't have the time to dig through your posts about your connections from your (former) music industry days and I'm going to try and stay on topic.

 

[Wazmankg]

Like it or not, the new metrics are here to stay and the data that supplies them is only going to get better. As it becomes more accepted, the writers will have to conform.

Perhaps some will, but like it or not a "statistic" where the foundation is an imaginary, hypothetical 4A player will never gain wide acceptance among baseball fans.

 

[jalopy]

I know i heard almost everyone pick miggy....unless hes talking about this ONE thread.

We live in different parts of the country with different values. As a long time Arizona resident and now living in the land of the kooks in Cally (both North and South), I can tell you that numbers are much more important than the eyeball test. Maybe it is because of my math and science background but data trumps my eyesight every time.

 

[jalopy]

Perhaps some will, but like it or not a "statistic" where the foundation is an imaginary, hypothetical 4A player will never gain wide acceptance among baseball fans.

It already has. GM's now rely on the so-called imaginary and hypothetical numbers to build teams. Show me a baseball fan that doesn't have an opinion on WAR. It might not be widely accepted as accurate, but it is well on the way to being mainstream.

 

[Cleaves2000]

There really isn't anything to answer. You make ridiculous boasts about how much baseball you watch while being an avid Lions and Spartan fan. I don't have the time to dig through your posts about your connections from your (former) music industry days and I'm going to try and stay on topic.

An avid lions fan? Where do you come up with that? I like the lions, but dont everyone have an NFL team? That doesnt mean i go to their games.....i barely post on the lions boards.......and im a spartan fan because i graduated from there.....but still what does that have to do with watching baseball?

You dont have time? It seems like thats all you have....please dig up all these things....not hard....just go to my profile

 

[Wazmankg]

We live in different parts of the country with different values. As a long time Arizona resident and now living in the land of the kooks in Cally (both North and South), I can tell you that numbers are much more important than the eyeball test. Maybe it is because of my math and science background but data trumps my eyesight every time.

You equated Tiger fans with Miggy supporters but baseball fans with Trout supporters. I think most math & science wizzes know better... those who can read anyway. So why did you post that ?