For those who think Trout over miggy

[Cleaves2000]

There really isn't anything to answer. You make ridiculous boasts about how much baseball you watch while being an avid Lions and Spartan fan. I don't have the time to dig through your posts about your connections from your (former) music industry days and I'm going to try and stay on topic.

How is it hard to watch baseball every night at 6? Rewatch the tigers around 10? I dont watch many shows on tv.......most tiger fans on here watch every game and are on the threads while doing it. Sorry my "music industry" has let me sit on my ass and raise my kids and watch sports.

 

[Cleaves2000]

You equated Tiger fans with Miggy supporters but baseball fans with Trout supporters. I think most math & science wizzes know better... those who can read anyway. So why did you post that ?

Yeah ONLY tiger fans defend cabrera

 

[broncosmitty]

I guess my point is that I don't quite understand the difference between MOP and MVP. I don't understand how a player that performs better on the field can somehow be less valuable. I understand the playoff argument and I agree that Detroit might not have made it without Miggy but the same can be said of Scherzer, JV, Sanchez, etc..

If Miggy and Trout switched teams (batting purposes only), do you really feel that the Angels would have made the playoffs or even had a better record? I realize it is a futile exercise because of the style and position differences but that is what sabermetrics attempts to do.

I completely agree with the point of Scherzer, JV, Sanchez etc being of almost, if not equal "Value" to Miggy. (I dont think pitchers can really be equal in a five man rotation. JV won, but Im not sure I would have cast my vote for him, if I had one.)The Tigers swept Cleveland with Santiago and Kelly playing third, basically wrapping up the division. I think I mentioned a looong time ago on this thread that there were arguments against Miggy winning that could be made. That's one of them. But as to the point of playing better on the field, I don't believe Trout did this season. The huge advantage in stolen bases didn't lead to many more runs. And that's the end goal if stolen bases. Aside from speed categories, I don't see where he is at the same level. (Defense is tough for me, because without seeing a player consistently I don't feel anyone can judge. UZR is one of my least favorite stats.

 

[broncosmitty]

As to the MOP vs MVP question.... Outstanding, to me, eliminates team standings, totals and performance. Valueable most definitely includes them. The simplistic way of putting it in context here, to me, would be: Take Cabrera away from the Tigers, do they still finish in first and make the playoffs? Take Trout away from the Angels and do they still finish below .500 and miss the playoffs? One answer is No,(or most likely no) the other is yes, and doesn't matter, as they missed the playoffs with him. I understand how people don't care for the difference, that's just how I look at it. (Years ago, I ran my mouth a lot more than I do now believe it or not. And one thing I ran it about was MOP vs MVP. I ran it enough that my athletic director let me put together a panel of students from across the conference. Got that fucker switched to MOP. Felt pretty good about it too.)

 

[Bulldog]

None, but at least they make it to the WS.......they have a chance.....the tigers end any chances the A's have every year they meet......the last 3 times? The late 80's and early 90's A's wouldnt had let that happen.

Plus detroit had 3 million fans this year.....how many did the A's have? Alot of empty seats when i see them in reg season....put a team the fans want to see...u draw more fans....more fans means more money....just like making a deep playoff run is money in the pocket. The A's will NEVER win a WS with moneyball.....what have they won? ONE postseason series?

Psssst.............It's not the A's he fans don't want to see it's County Stadium, by far the worst place to watch or play a game in the ML. The place is a dump, a shithole if you will. Giants owner will not release territorial rights that would allow the A's to build a new stadium in San jose. Give the A's a decent place to play and they will come. Be mighty careful Tigers fans. When the A's were a dynasty in the AL A's fans were always pretty cool about the A's success. Something Tigers fans need to learn.

 

[Bulldog]

It's really funny how a thread starts out being about one topic and then evoles into something entirely different.

 

[DragonfromTO]

As to the MOP vs MVP question.... Outstanding, to me, eliminates team standings, totals and performance. Valueable most definitely includes them. The simplistic way of putting it in context here, to me, would be: Take Cabrera away from the Tigers, do they still finish in first and make the playoffs? Take Trout away from the Angels and do they still finish below .500 and miss the playoffs? One answer is No,(or most likely no) the other is yes, and doesn't matter, as they missed the playoffs with him. I understand how people don't care for the difference, that's just how I look at it. (Years ago, I ran my mouth a lot more than I do now believe it or not. And one thing I ran it about was MOP vs MVP. I ran it enough that my athletic director let me put together a panel of students from across the conference. Got that fucker switched to MOP. Felt pretty good about it too.)

Doesn't this basically mean that if the team you play on is good enough (or the rest of the division is bad enough) to win the division by 15-20 games, you can't win MVP no matter how good a season you have? Why penalize a player for having good teammates or playing in a bad division?

Is a diamond ring on the finger of a millionaire worth more than the exact same ring on the finger of a bag lady?

 

[jalopy]

As to the MOP vs MVP question.... Outstanding, to me, eliminates team standings, totals and performance. Valueable most definitely includes them. The simplistic way of putting it in context here, to me, would be: Take Cabrera away from the Tigers, do they still finish in first and make the playoffs? Take Trout away from the Angels and do they still finish below .500 and miss the playoffs? One answer is No,(or most likely no) the other is yes, and doesn't matter, as they missed the playoffs with him. I understand how people don't care for the difference, that's just how I look at it. (Years ago, I ran my mouth a lot more than I do now believe it or not. And one thing I ran it about was MOP vs MVP. I ran it enough that my athletic director let me put together a panel of students from across the conference. Got that fucker switched to MOP. Felt pretty good about it too.)

I think players in a pennant race have an inherent advantage simply because they get more press. The Angels were an afterthought for most of the year so much of what Trout did went unnoticed. It doesn't diminish what he was able to accomplish. I think this was a case where Miggy had the award wrapped up by early August unless Davis did something special. He didn't and Miggy had the injury excuse to fall back on. I don't have a firm opinion on how much of an impact playing on a contender should carry. One one hand, winning is why they play the game but on the other I don't see why a player should get punished for his teammates lack of success.

I will say that seeing Puig play brings me back to a time when guys played for fun. That kid is raw enthusiasm and one of the few that I would pay to watch. It is kind of like watching Barry Sanders play. He didn't always help his team and often lost unnecessary yards but was there ever an athlete more of a joy to watch?

 

[jalopy]

Psssst.............It's not the A's he fans don't want to see it's County Stadium, by far the worst place to watch or play a game in the ML. The place is a dump, a shithole if you will. Giants owner will not release territorial rights that would allow the A's to build a new stadium in San jose. Give the A's a decent place to play and they will come. Be mighty careful Tigers fans. When the A's were a dynasty in the AL A's fans were always pretty cool about the A's success. Something Tigers fans need to learn.

Hard to believe but you understated the crappiness of County Stadium. It is an abomination that shouldn't exist. San Jose would be an ideal location because of the increasing population base and the sheer amount of corporate dollars in Silicon Valley. Tiger fans are great, but I must say they don't treat opposing fans as good as some places. Even this year in Oakland during the playoffs, I had multiple offers for beers and a group next to us bought our 5-year-old an A's hat to cover up his Tigers hat. The razzing was there but good natured. Game 2 was a long walk back to the car.

 

[Bulldog]

Miggy was an above average 1b.

But as a fan I still think Miggy was the Most Valuable Player! Detroit does not make the playoffs without him. IMO Cabrera was more valuable to Detroit than Trout was to the Angels!

But it appears people want to discount Tiger fans as being biased?

Stats can lie or be manipulated. WAR is a subjective stat.

What stat can fans point to that shows how Prince Fielders sub par year hurt pitch selection for Cabrera? Or V Marts poor first half performance influenced how teams approached the middle of Detroit's order?

You're going to use Fielder and Martinez as excuses for Miggy. Do you realize that Pujols and Hamilton were absolute garbage for the Angels all season long. Fielder and Martinez had great years compared to them. That simply doesn't hold water. If that's the case then I can say that if Pujols and Hamilton had there usual good years Trout would have set a ML record for runs scored. There, how does that sound?

 

[broncosmitty]

Doesn't this basically mean that if the team you play on is good enough (or the rest of the division is bad enough) to win the division by 15-20 games, you can't win MVP no matter how good a season you have? Why penalize a player for having good teammates or playing in a bad division?

Is a diamond ring on the finger of a millionaire worth more than the exact same ring on the finger of a bag lady?

It could mean that. It shouldnt, but it very well could. Which is a good argument for MOP over MVP. But it usually wouldn't keep a player from a great team from winning. The 2001 Mariners were one of the winningest teams ever. Ichiro won MVP that season. (I remember a lot of arguing for SuperRoider Giambi and a Boone brother that year.). If a bag lady has a diamond ring she needs to get her priorities in order. : )

 

[jdwills126]

You're going to use Fielder and Martinez as excuses for Miggy. Do you realize that Pujols and Hamilton were absolute garbage for the Angels all season long. Fielder and Martinez had great years compared to them. That simply doesn't hold water. If that's the case then I can say that if Pujols and Hamilton had there usual good years Trout would have set a ML record for runs scored. There, how does that sound?

Excuse? I used them to show that they did not provide him with protection in the order, and he still was in contention for the triple crown. He won the MVP I didn't know he needed excuses?

I didn't know Pujols and Hamilton protected Trout in the order. I thought Trout set the table for them!? In September and the playoffs Detroit looked bad. Without Miggy Cleveland finishes in first and Detroit misses the playoffs. Without Trout we really have no idea what the Angels would have been.

 

[broncosmitty]

I think players in a pennant race have an inherent advantage simply because they get more press. The Angels were an afterthought for most of the year so much of what Trout did went unnoticed. It doesn't diminish what he was able to accomplish. I think this was a case where Miggy had the award wrapped up by early August unless Davis did something special. He didn't and Miggy had the injury excuse to fall back on. I don't have a firm opinion on how much of an impact playing on a contender should carry. One one hand, winning is why they play the game but on the other I don't see why a player should get punished for his teammates lack of success.

I will say that seeing Puig play brings me back to a time when guys played for fun. That kid is raw enthusiasm and one of the few that I would pay to watch. It is kind of like watching Barry Sanders play. He didn't always help his team and often lost unnecessary yards but was there ever an athlete more of a joy to watch?

I agree. Had Davis kept his average up and Bmore made the playoffs he very well could have won. Im being honest when I say I was surprised he didn't finish second. (Whenever the GOAT conversation comes up, Im obviously a Barry guy. Because it was so exciting every time he touched the ball. Others have their reasons for their choice, rightfully so, but nobody could make believe a TD was coming like Barry did. I like watching Prince for the same reasons. He didn't make sense to sign. Hasnt provided the power that was expected. But I absolutely love watching him play like we did as kids. All out hustle, pretty or not.)

 

[Ronnie]

Miggy's chance to three-peat on the MVP award might take a hit now that Fielder could be a Ranger.

 

[Bulldog]

I will admit i prefer a complete player over one that's simply one dimentional. When it comes processing whose the better player the sabermetrical stats favor the complete player over the one dimentional when in close competition with one another. However, Tigers fans refuse to accept defensive stats and evaluations as important. You see Cabrera doesn't play very good defense, he's average at best. Without a doubt, at present the best hitter in the game. The question is does this make him the best player? Yes, he won MVP but alot of that has to do with the teammates and team as a whole. A better cast of characters around when you're having a good year certainly helps your chances. Trout had a great year but many of his teammates didn't. Two of the highest paid players in the game Pujols and hamilton had garbage seasons. To say their crappy performances didn't have an affect on Trout's overall numbers is ludicrous.

Tell me whom would you rather pay your hard earned dollars to watch play the game, Cabrera or Trout.

 

[jalopy]

Tell me whom would you rather pay your hard earned dollars to watch play the game, Cabrera or Trout.

No doubt about it. Trout, although I don't think he is the clubhouse presence that Miggy is.

 

[DragonfromTO]

It could mean that. It shouldnt, but it very well could. Which is a good argument for MOP over MVP. But it usually wouldn't keep a player from a great team from winning. The 2001 Mariners were one of the winningest teams ever. Ichiro won MVP that season. (I remember a lot of arguing for SuperRoider Giambi and a Boone brother that year.). If a bag lady has a diamond ring she needs to get her priorities in order. : )

That's a good example, you can easily use that same logic for the Ichiro year. That Mariner team won the division by 14 games and made the playoffs by 31 games, you could theoretically take Ichiro off that team and nothing in the standings would have changed. But does that mean that his season (or Boone's since you mentioned him) didn't have "value"?

 

[DragonfromTO]

It could mean that. It shouldnt, but it very well could. Which is a good argument for MOP over MVP. But it usually wouldn't keep a player from a great team from winning. The 2001 Mariners were one of the winningest teams ever. Ichiro won MVP that season. (I remember a lot of arguing for SuperRoider Giambi and a Boone brother that year.). If a bag lady has a diamond ring she needs to get her priorities in order. : )

I don't disagree, but the ring retains its value on either person's finger.

 

[broncosmitty]

I will admit i prefer a complete player over one that's simply one dimentional. When it comes processing whose the better player the sabermetrical stats favor the complete player over the one dimentional when in close competition with one another. However, Tigers fans refuse to accept defensive stats and evaluations as important. You see Cabrera doesn't play very good defense, he's average at best. Without a doubt, at present the best hitter in the game. The question is does this make him the best player? Yes, he won MVP but alot of that has to do with the teammates and team as a whole. A better cast of characters around when you're having a good year certainly helps your chances. Trout had a great year but many of his teammates didn't. Two of the highest paid players in the game Pujols and hamilton had garbage seasons. To say their crappy performances didn't have an affect on Trout's overall numbers is ludicrous.

Tell me whom would you rather pay your hard earned dollars to watch play the game, Cabrera or Trout.

I don't think anyone has said that Albert and Hamilton's down years/absence didn't have an effect. Had Trout batted in front of Miggy his run totals might have been historical. Maybe.

 

[broncosmitty]

That's a good example, you can easily use that same logic for the Ichiro year. That Mariner team won the division by 14 games and made the playoffs by 31 games, you could theoretically take Ichiro off that team and nothing in the standings would have changed. But does that mean that his season (or Boone's since you mentioned him) didn't have "value"?

The Mariners did win 25 more games in 2001 than they did in 2000. Not that it was just the addition of Ichiro, (Im a bit of an Ichiro honk)but that's a serious uptick. Their incredible season saw 5 Ms in the top 20 in voting that year. But I think you're definitely getting a point here if someone is keeping score.