Bird V Lebron @ age 30

[Shaqdaddy11]

Exactly!

People make far too much of Jordan's 6-0 finals record. Just because Jordan lost in the conference semis and the conference finals that is somehow better than losing in the finals?

losing in the Finals does not make somebody a choker. You have to have a damn good team just to get there.

Difference between the likes of Jordan, Kobe, Bird, and Lebron? They didn't hop teams to go to win championships. Teams go through ups and downs but as soon as lebron didn't get his way in cleveland the first time he hopped ship. Then again in miami.

And you can bet your ass Lebron will be looking damn close at other teams if they fail to win the title again this year (and they will).

 

[tlance]

Difference between the likes of Jordan, Kobe, Bird, and Lebron? They didn't hop teams to go to win championships. Teams go through ups and downs but as soon as lebron didn't get his way in cleveland the first time he hopped ship. Then again in miami.

And you can bet your ass Lebron will be looking damn close at other teams if they fail to win the title again this year (and they will).

That is an ignorant comment also.

Kobe, Jordan, Magic and Bird all played for top flight organizations that knew how to build championship rosters. Legacies are largely determined by number of championships (wrongly so IMO). Kevin Garnett was loyal to Minnesota for a long time. Had he stayed there, he would have 0 rings. Would that have made him less great? Minnesota was unable to put talent around him.

Likewise, cleveland's roster around LeBron was old and decrepit. When he left, it gave them a chance to stockpile young talent and rebuild. They would not be nearly as good today had LeBron stayed in Cleveland. Also, given the Cavs pretty dismal track record on picks and trades, one could argue that LeBron making Cleveland relevant is a tremendous accomplishment on its own. Their front office has no clue how to build a championship roster to this day. They lucked into 3 #1 picks (5 in the top 4) then got LeBron back. Any competently run franchise would be significantly better than Cleveland is today with those resources.

Criticize LeBron for leaving all you want, but you damn well better knock the Cavs front office in the same breath.

 

[UK Cowboy]

He would not be just as great. Wilt was not very skilled. One of his go to moves was a backhand flip toward the rim over the head of his 6 inch smaller defender. When it missed, he often tipped it back in because he was so much bigger.

There is a reason you don't see any bigs today utilizing that move. It is not really a move. Put Wilt in the league today and he is somewhere between Dwight Howard and Shaq. He would be good, not necessarily an all time great.

Absurd. He'd stuff it today instead of flip it. As to the 6" smaller defender, the average height of an NBA center when he played was nearly an inch taller than today. Surprisingly but true. Again, it's no different than saying Steph would 've a little better version of Steve Kerr if he played in the 80's when a defender could handle check

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

That is an ignorant comment also.

Kobe, Jordan, Magic and Bird all played for top flight organizations that knew how to build championship rosters. Legacies are largely determined by number of championships (wrongly so IMO). Kevin Garnett was loyal to Minnesota for a long time. Had he stayed there, he would have 0 rings. Would that have made him less great? Minnesota was unable to put talent around him.

Likewise, cleveland's roster around LeBron was old and decrepit. When he left, it gave them a chance to stockpile young talent and rebuild. They would not be nearly as good today had LeBron stayed in Cleveland. Also, given the Cavs pretty dismal track record on picks and trades, one could argue that LeBron making Cleveland relevant is a tremendous accomplishment on its own. Their front office has no clue how to build a championship roster to this day. They lucked into 3 #1 picks (5 in the top 4) then got LeBron back. Any competently run franchise would be significantly better than Cleveland is today with those resources.

Criticize LeBron for leaving all you want, but you damn well better knock the Cavs front office in the same breath.

And what was his excuse for leaving Miami?

 

[gordontrue]

And what was his excuse for leaving Miami?

Wait... you're criticizing him for abandoning his original team AND for going back to them?

 

[Wamu]

And what was his excuse for leaving Miami?

It could be as simple as he (and his family) wanted to go back home. Although I'm sure LeBron Haters don't wanna hear (or believe) that.

 

[ChrisGar15]

Difference between the likes of Jordan, Kobe, Bird, and Lebron? They didn't hop teams to go to win championships. Teams go through ups and downs but as soon as lebron didn't get his way in cleveland the first time he hopped ship. Then again in miami.

And you can bet your ass Lebron will be looking damn close at other teams if they fail to win the title again this year (and they will).

One guy that hopped to get a championship was Oscar Robertson.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Wait... you're criticizing him for abandoning his original team AND for going back to them?

No i'm criticizing him for leaving TWO teams

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

One guy that hopped to get a championship was Oscar Robertson.

He was traded...

 

[ChrisGar15]

He was traded...

The same way that Kevin Garnet (and Ray Ray, etc) was traded to chase a ring. Oscar didn't like the coach -- Bob Cousy -- and wanted to be traded. (the Royals were a mess .. a year or two later, Cousy came back and played a few games for the first time in something like 8 years)

 

[trojanfan12]

It could be as simple as he (and his family) wanted to go back home. Although I'm sure LeBron Haters don't wanna hear (or believe) that.

Then why leave in the first place? It could be as simple as he found himself an easier path to a title and really didn't care as much about Cleveland as he claimed. Although I'm sure Lebroniacs don't wanna hear (or believe) that.

 

[tlance]

Absurd. He'd stuff it today instead of flip it. As to the 6" smaller defender, the average height of an NBA center when he played was nearly an inch taller than today. Surprisingly but true. Again, it's no different than saying Steph would 've a little better version of Steve Kerr if he played in the 80's when a defender could handle check

It is a lot different. I said he would be somewhere between Dwight and Shaq who were both the most dominant big men in the game for a stretch. Are you suggesting Wilt would have averaged 50 per game today? That is absurd. The athletes are far superior today than what Wilt faced in the 60s.

 

[UK Cowboy]

It is a lot different. I said he would be somewhere between Dwight and Shaq who were both the most dominant big men in the game for a stretch. Are you suggesting Wilt would have averaged 50 per game today? That is absurd. The athletes are far superior today than what Wilt faced in the 60s.

I'm saying he would still be an all time great, I'm guessing his numbers would run very similar to Shaq's. I never said he'd average 50, but to discount older players talent is just as off base as knocking kids like Steph

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

The same way that Kevin Garnet (and Ray Ray, etc) was traded to chase a ring. Oscar didn't like the coach -- Bob Cousy -- and wanted to be traded. (the Royals were a mess .. a year or two later, Cousy came back and played a few games for the first time in something like 8 years)

Robertson got traded because Cousy was jealous of all the attention he was getting. Robertson was perfectly happy in Cincinnati and at no point did he demand a trade.

 

[tlance]

And what was his excuse for leaving Miami?

When he resigned in Cleveland, their roster was inferior to Miami's. Cleveland would have likely been somewhere between 7-10 in the East without LeBron last year.

Also, it is really unfair to talk about past stars that did not leave. Free agency was not the same 30 years ago.

As for Kobe, it is funny that he gets credit for staying in LA while LeBron gets crucified for leaving. Kobe played alongside the most dominant big man in the game his first few years in the game. After Shaq left, he asked to be traded multiple times, the Lakers just never complied, and were able to smoot things out. Then once they stole Gasol from the Grizzlies, they had another championship core.

So while it is true that Kobe never left and LeBron did, I also seriously doubt that he would have played his entire career in a city like Cleveland or Charlotte/New Orleans had he began his career there. He started out in a pretty good spot.

 

[tlance]

I'm saying he would still be an all time great, I'm guessing his numbers would run very similar to Shaq's. I never said he'd average 50, but to discount older players talent is just as off base as knocking kids like Steph

It is possible that he would have similar numbers to Shaq in today's game. It is also possible that he wouldn't. I did not say he would not be an all time great, I said he might not be. He might have merely been a very good player for his era (like Dwight).

 

[tlance]

Some players translate to any era. LeBron and Jordan are examples of that. Curry would be unguardable in any era, but probably not to he same extreme before the 3 point line was implemented.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Some players translate to any era. LeBron and Jordan are examples of that. Curry would be unguardable in any era, but probably not to he same extreme before the 3 point line was implemented.

Curry would be like Wilt, a great player, but not as dominant. With the ability to hand check and bump, and the retribution waiting if he drove the lane, he would not put up the same numbers

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Some players translate to any era. LeBron and Jordan are examples of that. Curry would be unguardable in any era, but probably not to he same extreme before the 3 point line was implemented.

No! Put lebron against players of the 90s and he becomes nothing but an average joe. If he had to face the likes of Hakeem, David Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, Barkley, Karl Malone, Anthony Mason, Dennis Rodman and Mutumbo night after night, Lebron would be making up excuses before Christmas!

While players might be more skilled than they were 20 years ago, they're also a LOT physically weaker. So don't give me that "Lebron could play in any era bullshit".

 

[tlance]

No! Put lebron against players of the 90s and he becomes nothing but an average joe. If he had to face the likes of Hakeem, David Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, Barkley, Karl Malone, Anthony Mason, Dennis Rodman and Mutumbo night after night, Lebron would be making up excuses before Christmas!

While players might be more skilled than they were 20 years ago, they're also a LOT physically weaker. So don't give me that "Lebron could play in any era bullshit".

LOL. Physically weaker? No. The rules have changed. Players are more athletic than ever before. There was nobody like LeBron in the 90s.