Tired of these LeBron-sexuals

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

So Jordan is probably called the Greatest of "Best Ever" since you said All-Time means Best ever.
Those examples you have shown used "All-Time" as a shortcut for the phrase "Best of All Time" FYI

YES! That is what all time means! All time means best of all time. And yes actually, greatest of all time is a bit redundant. Greatest would suffice.

Is English your second language? I noticed you are in Manila.

 

[CodeBreaker]

YES! That is what all time means! All time means best of all time. And yes actually, greatest of all time is a bit redundant. Greatest would suffice.

Is English your second language? I noticed you are in Manila.

Yes, and that's your advantage lol

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Yes, and that's your advantage lol

Ah. Then my apologies.

 

[ducky]

Comparing numbers across different eras is sort of silly. You can say Matthew Stafford is a better QB than Joe Montana using such logic.

In the 80's because of the defensive rules it was a lot easier to score. (Funny how people still think defense was better in that era).

Larry Bird finished in the top 5 in scoring only 4 years during his career. James has finished in the top 5 in 11 out of 12 seasons.

Bird had the highest player efficiency rating in the league 2 years during his career. Lebron 6 times.

I could go on like this for awhile but the long and short of it is....

Lebron James is a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better player in his era than Bird was in his.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

In the 80's because of the defensive rules it was a lot easier to score. (Funny how people still think defense was better in that era).

NBA.com: Rules changes have affected defensive philosophies

 

[ducky]

NBA.com: Rules changes have affected defensive philosophies

In the 80's teams scored on average 110 points a game. Now they score around 100. That's 20 more points per game that was being scored. It was a LOT easier to score in the 80's than it is today.

The hand check rule is completely insignificant compared to the philosophical changes to the game over that time.

Think Mike D'Antonio. Most teams played with a similar offense only and play a little defense if we happen to fall into it approach. That was the 80's. Rebounding and defense weren't as important as trying to get out on the break and get some easy baskets. Slowly teams like Detroit, Riley's Knick's and jordan's Bulls showed that it was a completely failed philosophy and the entire league adjusted. People like to think of those teams when they think of defense in that era but those teams were exceptions to the rule. Most teams didn't play any defense and even those "great" defensive teams weren't as efficient at defense as an average team today is.

Thinking defense was better back in the 80's and 90's is nostalgia and not much more. The players were so much less athletic (especially the bigs) than today's players and the defensive philosophies that were employed is laughable to the schemes used today.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

In the 80's teams scored on average 110 points a game. Now they score around 100. That's 20 more points per game that was being scored. It was a LOT easier to score in the 80's than it is today.

The hand check rule is completely insignificant compared to the philosophical changes to the game over that time.

Think Mike D'Antonio. Most teams played with a similar offense only and play a little defense if we happen to fall into it approach. That was the 80's. Rebounding and defense weren't as important as trying to get out on the break and get some easy baskets. Slowly teams like Detroit, Riley's Knick's and jordan's Bulls showed that it was a completely failed philosophy and the entire league adjusted. People like to think of those teams when they think of defense in that era but those teams were exceptions to the rule. Most teams didn't play any defense and even those "great" defensive teams weren't as efficient at defense as an average team today is.

Thinking defense was better back in the 80's and 90's is nostalgia and not much more. The players were so much less athletic (especially the bigs) than today's players and the defensive philosophies that were employed is laughable to the schemes used today.

Actually you couldn't be more wrong. They played team ball in the 80's kinda like those revolutionary Spurs of today. The reason that scoring is lower now isn't the defenses but the offenses. Hero ball. One guy in ISO, holds the ball for 15 seconds before doing anything. There used to be a flow to the game. Now? Not so much.

When did you start watching basketball? 5 years ago?

 

[ducky]

Actually you couldn't be more wrong. They played team ball in the 80's kinda like those revolutionary Spurs of today. The reason that scoring is lower now isn't the defenses but the offenses. Hero ball. One guy in ISO, holds the ball for 15 seconds before doing anything. There used to be a flow to the game. Now? Not so much.

When did you start watching basketball? 5 years ago?

The assist % from the two eras are within a couple of percentage points (60% to 58% one the couple years that I measured).

Again...nostalgia only. For every wing ISO today you had a throw it into the post and stand around schem in the 80's.

....

I was a Showtime Laker fan simply because my older brother was a Bird's Celtic fan and I had to like the opposite of whatever he liked. I saw both eras.

The athletic ability and shot making ability of today's players is off the chart compared to then. Go watch a guy like Steph Curry create space to get off a shot compared to how easy it was to get off a shot back in the 80's. The perimeter defense even with the loss of the hand check is stifling compared to that era with very, very few exceptions (some of the guards later in that era were ahead of their time).

And think of how important the stretch 4 is in the game today. Back then everyone was a stretch 4 because the defender couldn't sag and help in the passing and driving lanes without getting called for an illegal defense. And what's funny is that the coaching still didn't think of a way to take advantage of it completely.

Look at the old Utah team. They probably ran the most modern offensive look at the time simply because they would pick and roll so much. And it was nearly unstoppable because the complete lack of athletic ability of the PF's in the league at that time. The idea of a PF being able to switch and adequately guard a 1 or a 2 even for a handful of seconds is laughable in that era.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

The assist % from the two eras are within a couple of percentage points (60% to 58% one the couple years that I measured).

Again...nostalgia only. For every wing ISO today you had a throw it into the post and stand around schem in the 80's.

....

I was a Showtime Laker fan simply because my older brother was a Bird's Celtic fan and I had to like the opposite of whatever he liked. I saw both eras.

The athletic ability and shot making ability of today's players is off the chart compared to then. Go watch a guy like Steph Curry create space to get off a shot compared to how easy it was to get off a shot back in the 80's. The perimeter defense even with the loss of the hand check is stifling compared to that era with very, very few exceptions (some of the guards later in that era were ahead of their time).

And think of how important the stretch 4 is in the game today. Back then everyone was a stretch 4 because the defender couldn't sag and help in the passing and driving lanes without getting called for an illegal defense. And what's funny is that the coaching still didn't think of a way to take advantage of it completely.

Look at the old Utah team. They probably ran the most modern offensive look at the time simply because they would pick and roll so much. And it was nearly unstoppable because the complete lack of athletic ability of the PF's in the league at that time. The idea of a PF being able to switch and adequately guard a 1 or a 2 even for a handful of seconds is laughable in that era.

So you are old enough and should know better. Here you go.

In my examination of scorers across time, a very common theme came up. Over time the game has “slowed down”. Back in 1974 when NBA first started keeping enough stats to track possessions, the average team had around 125 per game. Last season the NBA had simmered to only 105. That’s a lot of possessions that have disappeared in 40 years. The simple formula I’m using for possessions is

[Possessions] = [Field Goal Attempts] + 0.44 * [Free Throw Attempts] + [Turnovers]
The answer was a bit fun to look into.

Teams got more careful


The biggest change that’s happened across times is that teams have been turning the ball over much less. In the 70s the average team would turn the ball over 20+ times a game. That’s dropped to around 14 in recent history. Around 25% of the change in possessions can simply be chalked up to better ball handling!

Teams got more careful, part two!


From the mid-70s to the mid-80s teams just kept fouling. From it’s peak in 1987 though, teams have seen a pretty decent drop in fouling. A drop of around 8 free throw attempts a game has given teams about 4 possessions a game. It should be noted that teams have stayed pretty close to around 75% free throw shooting, so only the foul rate has had a real impact on possessions.
Where’d All the Possessions Go? | The Wages of Wins Journal

Here, I will give you a timeline of the various rule changes since Jordan's 1998 retirement. Over time, the game was slowly, but rapidly becoming more of a perimeter player's game.

1999-00

• In the backcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders. In the frontcourt, there is no contact with hands and forearms by defenders except below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may only use his forearm. In the post, neither the offensive player nor the defender is allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position. Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player. Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding "chucking" or "wrapping up" is prohibited.

2000-01

• No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only
• Neither the offensive player nor the defender will be allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position.
• Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
• Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding "chucking" or "wrapping up" is prohibited.

(I guess the repeat is to further endorse and remind everyone).

2001-02

• A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player.

2004-05

• New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three secondsto open up the game.

2006-07

• On a clear-path-to-the-basket foul, the team that is fouled is awarded two free throw attempt and the ball on the sideline.

As you can see, as time went on, the NBA was deteriorating the impact of the post players in favor of the perimeter. Ironically, the rules began to shift during the Shaq/Duncan reign (last era of dominant big men). No longer could a player grab, hold, wrap around or check with the hand in the face. Forearms were prohibited. The 2004-2005 season is where things really came to a head, when they clearly wanted to "curtail hand-checking" to call defensive three seconds in favor of this one key purpose "to open up the game". Even though this is pretty explanatory, allow me to break it down even more: When they say to open up the game, it is to give perimeter players more space to score. It is no coincidence that Steve Nash went from a middle of the pack Point Guard, to suddenly a 2-time MVP, while shooting 50% from the field.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Fact #1
It did NOT become harder to score because the illegal defense was eliminated in 2000/01. Why? Because they also included the defensive 3 second rule (which permitted players from standing in the lane for more than 3 seconds without guarding an offensive player) therefore eliminating a true zone defense.

What does the stats show?
League average scoring stats did not go down dramatically on or after 2000/2001. You can look at the pts per game or eFG%.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...NBA_stats.html

Fact #2
It DID become easier to score after they curtailed the handchecking rule in 2004/05.

What does the stats show?
Points per game went up by 4 pts that year and the eFG% went up from .471 (a year before) to .482 that year and it has been going up and up. The past regular season was at .501 (highest in history of the league).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...NBA_stats.html
04/05 - (Handchecking curtailed since the perimeter oriented players at this stage was just stinking up the joint with their bad wanna be ISO mike offense)
-
-
13/14 - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...4_leaders.html

In Summary
-NBA offense started to stink around 97/98 as more and more teams went perimeter oriented and players trying to be like Mike
-NBA offense really stunk it up during 98/99 due to lock out and more and more teams went for more perimeter oriented offense
-2001/02 they got rid of illegal defense and put in 3 second defensive rule. Didn't do much in regards to making the offense worse or better. It was still stinking.
-2004/2005 League worried about the stinking stench which is called scoring in the game and the persistence of teams going for perimeter oriented offense and the lack of skilled big men coming up the ranks (because previous 13yr olds that wanted to be like Mike unfortunately grew up to be 7ft)....they came up with a brilliant idea....since teams are adamant to go perimeter oriented offense and lack of big men with fundamental post game...lets make it easy for perimeter players! Lets get rid of Handchecking!
-Since 2004/05 to now...scoring is higher, and eFG% is higher. NBA chiefs are happy...spectators are happy. 12 year olds claiming 80's 90's have nothing compared to todays players making old timers unhappy.

Here is Brooklyn Nets Star Joe Johnson on how the rule changes helped him, from an interview in the summer of 2010: "It benefits me," said Johnson, who was one of three Hawks players that season who averaged 20 or more ppg that season. (Mike Bibby & Jamal Crawford were the other two) Johnson continues: "It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different. If they couldn't hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980's and 1990's. Can you imagine what Michael Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn't hand check."

But then you already knew all of this because you chimed in in that thread as well. You just don't want to admit the truth to yourself?

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

The assist % from the two eras are within a couple of percentage points.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Comparing numbers across different eras is sort of silly. You can say Matthew Stafford is a better QB than Joe Montana using such logic.

In the 80's because of the defensive rules it was a lot easier to score. (Funny how people still think defense was better in that era).

Larry Bird finished in the top 5 in scoring only 4 years during his career. James has finished in the top 5 in 11 out of 12 seasons.

Bird had the highest player efficiency rating in the league 2 years during his career. Lebron 6 times.

I could go on like this for awhile but the long and short of it is....

Lebron James is a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better player in his era than Bird was in his.

It could be argued James is better, but much, much, much better? Bullshit.

Bird was a better rebounder and passer. James is a better scorer (and that could be debated) and defender.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

It could be argued James is better, but much, much, much better? Bullshit.

Bird was a better rebounder and passer. James is a better scorer (and that could be debated) and defender.

Again, the defensive win shares number favors Bird. Just sayin...