2024 Rosterbation

[LHG]

Although I agree with a lot of this, I guess that I have a slightly different prospective overall.

1) They had their championship runs BECAUSE they *developed* key players in-house, and brought in FAs (or guys from the farm) to complement them (and who often had career years). Posey, Belt, Crawford, Sandoval, Schierholtz, Cain, Bumgarner, Lincecum, (and signed Cabrera, Pagan, Pence - since they didn't have HUGE salaries weighing down the club)

PS: The SF Giants had the greatest hitter in the history of the game for over 10 years, but won not a single championship because they couldn't afford to pay quality FAs (or half-way decent farm hands, NOT Bowker) to complement him. {{ OK, OK, the won the NLCS and went to the WS) }}. (Seriously, Neifi Perez? R U kidding me?) Hillenbrand? Steve Finley? José Castillo. Emmanuel Burriss (barf). And trading away Joe Nathan?

2) One of the biggest mistakes that the Giants have repeatedly made since 2010 is re-signing almost everybody on a championship team. Obviously you give a good contract to Posey and Cain and Lincecum. Duh. And I can't blame them for Pence (or Pablo) looked like good ideas at the time. But don't sign 2 or 3 or 4 year contracts with guys who are 33/34 or over! They signed too many expensive contracts to be able to bring on any GOOD (a bit above average - not even great) players. Well, Scutaro sort of worked out - but you really don't give a 37-year-old a 3 year contract for $6M per. He only played ONE season of that contract (quibblers might point out 10 or 15 games in 2013, but really?) Peavy got a big !KA-CHING! for a follow-on contract after the 2014 WS. He pitched OK in 15, but flailed in '16 while being paid $15M).

3) They signed older FA pitchers (true, pitching was the Gs strength, but they screwed the pooch on every older pitcher they signed). Zito ...

4) The 2014 team was what the Giants should be aiming for. Develop your farm, stock it with talent, and then let them loose with a few "extras". Just about everybody that came up through the Giants minors was playing well above league average, even Panic, Ishikawa and Susac. And the "sign ons" that year also did really well. Peavy really came through when Cain got hurt .

So I definitely agree with the sentiment "Build the strongest TEAM you can and use the FA and trades to go after certain pieces." The Giants should have tried to stack the minors with talent. Both by growing draftees and ALSO through trades at the July deadline to pick up talent. They didn't do so well over the past 5 years, even though they did pick up some serviceable guys and some pretty good ones. I hate the "shuffle-board" technique that FZ has employed - it really doewn't make players want to come here. However, there was SOME success : LaMonte Wade (via trade), Thairo Estrada (via trade), J.D. Davis (via trade), Wilmer Flores (FA), Yastrzemski (trade), Austin Slater (draft), Tyler Fitzgerald (draft, really too early to tell). Also, Webb (draft), DeSclafani (FA), Camilo Doval ("draft" - Intl FA), Tyler Rogers (draft), Keaton Winn (draft - too young to tell), Luke Jackson (FA), Marques Johnson (trade. He's only been in 'A' and AFL for the Giants but HOLY SHIT! his *highest* WHIP with the Gs is 1.0 in the AFL. I hate to get too excited about guys in 'A' ball but I will keep an eye on him ). So none of these guys are superstars (although a few could be considered to have shown streaks of 'star' potential). (Most of them) are guys that fill in for relatively cheap and give a bit more than a little above average, but most not star material. These are the guys that you fill out your team, and you sign a couple of stars (for not too long) to pave the way.

The Giants should NOT sign one superstar for a huge salary that will cripple the team for years with salary debt. Well, unless he's a starting pitcher 29 or under who has a career whip under 1.1 and with no history of injury.

So you also agree that we need to sign Yamamoto. Cool!

 

[calsnowskier]

I couldn't agree more. I've been saying this since '15 when they started giving long term 'loyality' contracts for a previous good season. As if we needed any further examples, just look to the Chase Center where the Warriors have gone from contenders to a middle of the pack squad.

In pro sports you need a solid young core under multi-year contracts that are on the upswing of their career. You don't need high $$ players who are on the downside that clog the roster.

Front offices seem to make the same mistakes over and over until teams devolve to a point where they are forced to rebuild. And we all know rebuilding is not a guaranteed process.

Don't assume fans want players who are no longer on the upside of their career, with few exceptions.
Don't offer contracts out of loyalty for past performances. Very few players are 'loyal' and most have more than enough wealth, they aren't charity cases

There is a philosophical difference between dumping your stars early (Walsh-Niners more than A’s or Marlins) vs keeping you loved stars longer than you should (Al-Raiders or Giants). Both can work, both can blow up horribly as well.

When the Giants weren’t winning (pre-2010), they made a practice of making strong ties to their personalities. Mays, McCovey, Bonds. Clark was an unfortunate exception to that rule. Then, when the 50-whatever year streak was broken, they had to pay Huff and Burrell and Sanchez and…. Then, when they won a second a third, they had to pay Pence and Craw and Belt and Scutaro and …. I don’t really fault them for any of THOSE moves. Championshis are special, and teams rewarding players AFTER THE FACT for those is really good karma.

But not trading Bum when that relationship has soured is malpractice. Not trading Rodon is incompetence. All to not lose some gate receipts. Very short sighted, imho, and it has now cost the org 5 years of so of additional desert-wandering.

 

[LHG]

Although I agree with a lot of this, I guess that I have a slightly different prospective overall.

1) They had their championship runs BECAUSE they *developed* key players in-house, and brought in FAs (or guys from the farm) to complement them (and who often had career years). Posey, Belt, Crawford, Sandoval, Schierholtz, Cain, Bumgarner, Lincecum, (and signed Cabrera, Pagan, Pence - since they didn't have HUGE salaries weighing down the club)

PS: The SF Giants had the greatest hitter in the history of the game for over 10 years, but won not a single championship because they couldn't afford to pay quality FAs (or half-way decent farm hands, NOT Bowker) to complement him. {{ OK, OK, the won the NLCS and went to the WS) }}. (Seriously, Neifi Perez? R U kidding me?) Hillenbrand? Steve Finley? José Castillo. Emmanuel Burriss (barf). And trading away Joe Nathan?

2) One of the biggest mistakes that the Giants have repeatedly made since 2010 is re-signing almost everybody on a championship team. Obviously you give a good contract to Posey and Cain and Lincecum. Duh. And I can't blame them for Pence (or Pablo) looked like good ideas at the time. But don't sign 2 or 3 or 4 year contracts with guys who are 33/34 or over! They signed too many expensive contracts to be able to bring on any GOOD (a bit above average - not even great) players. Well, Scutaro sort of worked out - but you really don't give a 37-year-old a 3 year contract for $6M per. He only played ONE season of that contract (quibblers might point out 10 or 15 games in 2013, but really?) Peavy got a big !KA-CHING! for a follow-on contract after the 2014 WS. He pitched OK in 15, but flailed in '16 while being paid $15M).

3) They signed older FA pitchers (true, pitching was the Gs strength, but they screwed the pooch on every older pitcher they signed). Zito ...

4) The 2014 team was what the Giants should be aiming for. Develop your farm, stock it with talent, and then let them loose with a few "extras". Just about everybody that came up through the Giants minors was playing well above league average, even Panic, Ishikawa and Susac. And the "sign ons" that year also did really well. Peavy really came through when Cain got hurt .

So I definitely agree with the sentiment "Build the strongest TEAM you can and use the FA and trades to go after certain pieces." The Giants should have tried to stack the minors with talent. Both by growing draftees and ALSO through trades at the July deadline to pick up talent. They didn't do so well over the past 5 years, even though they did pick up some serviceable guys and some pretty good ones. I hate the "shuffle-board" technique that FZ has employed - it really doewn't make players want to come here. However, there was SOME success : LaMonte Wade (via trade), Thairo Estrada (via trade), J.D. Davis (via trade), Wilmer Flores (FA), Yastrzemski (trade), Austin Slater (draft), Tyler Fitzgerald (draft, really too early to tell). Also, Webb (draft), DeSclafani (FA), Camilo Doval ("draft" - Intl FA), Tyler Rogers (draft), Keaton Winn (draft - too young to tell), Luke Jackson (FA), Marques Johnson (trade. He's only been in 'A' and AFL for the Giants but HOLY SHIT! his *highest* WHIP with the Gs is 1.0 in the AFL. I hate to get too excited about guys in 'A' ball but I will keep an eye on him ). So none of these guys are superstars (although a few could be considered to have shown streaks of 'star' potential). (Most of them) are guys that fill in for relatively cheap and give a bit more than a little above average, but most not star material. These are the guys that you fill out your team, and you sign a couple of stars (for not too long) to pave the way.

The Giants should NOT sign one superstar for a huge salary that will cripple the team for years with salary debt. Well, unless he's a starting pitcher 29 or under who has a career whip under 1.1 and with no history of injury.

There is a philosophical difference between dumping your stars early (Walsh-Niners more than A’s or Marlins) vs keeping you loved stars longer than you should (Al-Raiders or Giants). Both can work, both can blow up horribly as well.

When the Giants weren’t winning (pre-2010), they made a practice of making strong ties to their personalities. Mays, McCovey, Bonds. Clark was an unfortunate exception to that rule. Then, when the 50-whatever year streak was broken, they had to pay Huff and Burrell and Sanchez and…. Then, when they won a second a third, they had to pay Pence and Craw and Belt and Scutaro and …. I don’t really fault them for any of THOSE moves. Championshis are special, and teams rewarding players AFTER THE FACT for those is really good karma.

But not trading Bum when that relationship has soured is malpractice. Not trading Rodon is incompetence. All to not lose some gate receipts. Very short sighted, imho, and it has now cost the org 5 years of so of additional desert-wandering.

I fall a bit in between what I'm reading the two of you to say regarding the post championship contracts. I think that it made a lot of sense to lock some of those guys up but others were just absurd from the start. You don't need to keep the whole band together from one year to the next, especially when some of the band members are closer to retirement than their best years. Sure, some had career years late in their career, but that should have been a bigger warning sign. Of course, if those older guys were popular in the clubhouse, there was the chemistry part of the equation the FO had to consider as well.

 

[stanford the manford]

There is a philosophical difference between dumping your stars early (Walsh-Niners more than A’s or Marlins) vs keeping you loved stars longer than you should (Al-Raiders or Giants). Both can work, both can blow up horribly as well.

When the Giants weren’t winning (pre-2010), they made a practice of making strong ties to their personalities. Mays, McCovey, Bonds. Clark was an unfortunate exception to that rule. Then, when the 50-whatever year streak was broken, they had to pay Huff and Burrell and Sanchez and…. Then, when they won a second a third, they had to pay Pence and Craw and Belt and Scutaro and …. I don’t really fault them for any of THOSE moves. Championshis are special, and teams rewarding players AFTER THE FACT for those is really good karma.

But not trading Bum when that relationship has soured is malpractice. Not trading Rodon is incompetence. All to not lose some gate receipts. Very short sighted, imho, and it has now cost the org 5 years of so of additional desert-wandering.

I can only think of a few player who actually drove gate receipts. Bonds, Clark, Lincecum, Posey, Bum on occasion. Might be able to make an argument for Pablo. Fans turned out specifically to see them

I'd argue the vast majority of our favorites, Williams, Pence, Craw, Cain etc., drew fans because they were integral to an engaging team. I just don't believe they were individual draws. Put another way, replace them with like talent and attendance wouldn't change, but Bonds et al drove ticket sales.

 

[calsnowskier]

I can only think of a few player who actually drove gate receipts. Bonds, Clark, Lincecum, Posey, Bum on occasion. Might be able to make an argument for Pablo. Fans turned out specifically to see them

I'd argue the vast majority of our favorites, Williams, Pence, Craw, Cain etc., drew fans because they were integral to an engaging team. I just don't believe they were individual draws. Put another way, replace them with like talent and attendance wouldn't change, but Bonds et al drove ticket sales.

As loved as Craw is, I agree that he probably never drove ticket sales. Though his story of being a Giant#for-life added to the general appeal of the team as a whole more than most. Think of his as a “glue guy” in regards to the team image.

I also think Pence was a second tier gate attraction. His pure love of the game pulled me to additional games when they got down here to Petco. And he probably drew on the road with other fans as well. Remember his interactions with Mets fans…

 

[SF11704]

Interesting discussion ... I have a much different perspective on players driving ticket sales ....

The first time I was in a ballpark it was either 1953 (maybe) or 1954 (sure). My father took me to quite a few games at the Polo Grounds, He loved his Giants and was definitely grooming me. I grew up with Wille Mays, Alvin Dark, Whitey Lockman and a host of other players. The Polo Grounds (Giants) and Ebbets Field (Dodgers) were both reachable by public transportation. Made it easy for kids for young people to attend games. I don't remember going to any games where my intent was to see a particular player. I went to see the team. For all of my life I've been a Giant 'team' fan. Never really separated them by individual players. But there were times I went to a game because a certain pitcher was on the mound. I never went to see Mays play but I did go to see Antonelli or some other specific Giant pitcher. ................. BUT ............

I did go to the ballpark at times to see a specific player on another team. This was all about baseball cards and being a kid .....
I wanted to see Stan Musial, Hank Aaron, Duke Snider, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Joe Torre, Ron Santo and a host of other great players. All of these guys were in my baseball card collection and also all in the National League (didn't have inter-league play).

As a young kid in the 1960s' you could buy the cheapest seat (bleachers) available and roam the stadium at will. No ushers ever bothered you. Especially true for afternoon games. You'd get to the park at about 10am and wait for the teams to warm up. If you were really lucky you could get one of the other team's players to actually sign your baseball cards. I actually had a few cards signed when I was a kid. Most players were very agreeable back then. Of course you always went after the Giant players for signatures as well. That's what you did as a kid .... went to see famous players that were in your baseball card collection .....

 

[stanford the manford]

Interesting discussion ... I have a much different perspective on players driving ticket sales ....

The first time I was in a ballpark it was either 1953 (maybe) or 1954 (sure). My father took me to quite a few games at the Polo Grounds, He loved his Giants and was definitely grooming me. I grew up with Wille Mays, Alvin Dark, Whitey Lockman and a host of other players. The Polo Grounds (Giants) and Ebbets Field (Dodgers) were both reachable by public transportation. Made it easy for kids for young people to attend games. I don't remember going to any games where my intent was to see a particular player. I went to see the team. For all of my life I've been a Giant 'team' fan. Never really separated them by individual players. But there were times I went to a game because a certain pitcher was on the mound. I never went to see Mays play but I did go to see Antonelli or some other specific Giant pitcher. ................. BUT ............

I did go to the ballpark at times to see a specific player on another team. This was all about baseball cards and being a kid .....
I wanted to see Stan Musial, Hank Aaron, Duke Snider, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Joe Torre, Ron Santo and a host of other great players. All of these guys were in my baseball card collection and also all in the National League (didn't have inter-league play).

As a young kid in the 1960s' you could buy the cheapest seat (bleachers) available and roam the stadium at will. No ushers ever bothered you. Especially true for afternoon games. You'd get to the park at about 10am and wait for the teams to warm up. If you were really lucky you could get one of the other team's players to actually sign your baseball cards. I actually had a few cards signed when I was a kid. Most players were very agreeable back then. Of course you always went after the Giant players for signatures as well. That's what you did as a kid .... went to see famous players that were in your baseball card collection .....

actually in the last 3 years we've snagged <$10 tix a number of time. I recently bought a block for a '24 day game with the phillies for $/5.

granted they're upper deck around 3rd base, but ones we prefer for day games. warm, good view of the bay, no music blaring, we can spread out and even go down to the tables at the rail to eat - never get hassled by ushers unless we mistakenly poach someone's seats.

lots of families usually in attendance.

went to several A's day games in '23 and although we paid higher that our $10 pain threshold, there were tons on kids groups having a great time

players obviously aren't as accessible, but with a little effort it's pretty affordable now.

 

[MarcoPolo]

SF11704 said : " .... what happened in the past 7 years to alter the way the FO is now building their teams. "

To be a little snotty about it, FZ *isn't* building a team. He is building a money printing machine. On the other hand, he DID find quite a few "good" and "above average" youngsters, some of which have star (not SUPERstar) potential. But he hasn't built a team.

But the real problem was MONEY. There wasn't enough after LONG, EXPENSIVE contracts handed out from 2011-2015. Barely enough to sign mediocre pros, post-30, who may or may not work out for 1-3 years.

 

[calsnowskier]

SF11704 said : " .... what happened in the past 7 years to alter the way the FO is now building their teams. "

To be a little snotty about it, FZ *isn't* building a team. He is building a money printing machine. On the other hand, he DID find quite a few "good" and "above average" youngsters, some of which have star (not SUPERstar) potential. But he hasn't built a team.

But the real problem was MONEY. There wasn't enough after LONG, EXPENSIVE contracts handed out from 2011-2015. Barely enough to sign mediocre pros, post-30, who may or may not work out for 1-3 years.

He has added only one legit blue chipper in 5 years (MAYBE 2 if you want squint and tilt you head just right to see Arias in that particular light). That is not a good track record for a guy who I supposed to be a farm guru.

 

[SF11704]

But the real problem was MONEY. There wasn't enough after LONG, EXPENSIVE contracts handed out from 2011-2015. Barely enough to sign mediocre pros, post-30, who may or may not work out for 1-3 years.

This really makes you think of the issue of a an Ohtani type contract (550M over 10 years) can do to a team .... at age 37 .... he will still have 3 years and 165M left on contract ... a very very large risk

 

[sf1giantfan]

This really makes you think of the issue of a an Ohtani type contract (550M over 10 years) can do to a team .... at age 37 .... he will still have 3 years and 165M left on contract ... a very very large risk

Yep and that is why we should only be jacking the price up for the dodgers

 

[Hangman]

We should be dumping older players and tanking and do a total rebuild Rays style if we do not get a top tier free agent. Being mediocre year after year make it so difficult to get star players.

 

[calsnowskier]

We should be dumping older players and tanking and do a total rebuild Rays style if we do not get a top tier free agent. Being mediocre year after year make it so difficult to get star players.

I would rather they do it Dodger style. Invest shit-tons in the farm system, them buy prospect by taking bad contracts, thus putting a fun team on the field while getting studs for the farm system.

It costs money, but it builds a sustainable system.

 

[LHG]

I would rather they do it Dodger style. Invest shit-tons in the farm system, them buy prospect by taking bad contracts, thus putting a fun team on the field while getting studs for the farm system.

It costs money, but it builds a sustainable system.

I actually like the Astros' model (minus the trash cans). Tank, invest heavily in the minor leagues (both in scouting and in prospects), build a solid core around the farm grown guys and be savvy in who you keep and who you let walk.

 

[LHG]

I know these aren't the big signings that FZ will do and that, within the transactions themselves, there is no "down side" but I know that there will be a ton more and they will just go in and out of the farm system. I find it frustrating that this FO loves reclamation projects, gets a ton of them and then jettisons quite a few before really getting much of a look at them (while others rot in the farm while looking horrible). I'd rather all get a decent look, keep the ones who look promising, dump the ones who don't and don't bother grabbing the ones who will be gone in two weeks.

Giants Agree To Deals With Daulton Jefferies, Yoshi Tsutsugo

Daulton Jefferies is in agreement on a deal with the Giants, the right-hander announced this morning. Susan Slusser of the …

www.mlbtraderumors.com

 

[sf1giantfan]

I think signing Yoshi was the Giants letting Yamamoto we have a Japanese player he can talk with on the bench.

 

[SF11704]

I know these aren't the big signings that FZ will do and that, within the transactions themselves, there is no "down side" but I know that there will be a ton more and they will just go in and out of the farm system. I find it frustrating that this FO loves reclamation projects, gets a ton of them and then jettisons quite a few before really getting much of a look at them (while others rot in the farm while looking horrible). I'd rather all get a decent look, keep the ones who look promising, dump the ones who don't and don't bother grabbing the ones who will be gone in two weeks.

Giants Agree To Deals With Daulton Jefferies, Yoshi Tsutsugo

Daulton Jefferies is in agreement on a deal with the Giants, the right-hander announced this morning. Susan Slusser of the …

www.mlbtraderumors.com

IMHO this is a part of the 'churn process' that FZ and company are very enamored with. I just don't believe that it works with a team that has as many needs as we do. Rather than actively addressing the actual problem we spend major amounts of time and energy going through bargain basement items looking for solutions .... and as you so eloquently stated ---- then we really don't spend much time looking at them..

 

[calsnowskier]

I know these aren't the big signings that FZ will do and that, within the transactions themselves, there is no "down side" but I know that there will be a ton more and they will just go in and out of the farm system. I find it frustrating that this FO loves reclamation projects, gets a ton of them and then jettisons quite a few before really getting much of a look at them (while others rot in the farm while looking horrible). I'd rather all get a decent look, keep the ones who look promising, dump the ones who don't and don't bother grabbing the ones who will be gone in two weeks.

Giants Agree To Deals With Daulton Jefferies, Yoshi Tsutsugo

Daulton Jefferies is in agreement on a deal with the Giants, the right-hander announced this morning. Susan Slusser of the …

www.mlbtraderumors.com

Every team grabs these kinda guys up.

Interesting note, we signed Tsutsugo to essentially the same contract last off season, but he opted out mid-season.

 

[calsnowskier]

I think signing Yoshi was the Giants letting Yamamoto we have a Japanese player he can talk with on the bench.

Next to zero chance Yoshi makes the club. This has nothing to do with nothing and is just a nothing move the type that every team makes every off season.

 

[LHG]

Every team grabs these kinda guys up.

Interesting note, we signed Tsutsugo to essentially the same contract last off season, but he opted out mid-season.

I agree that every team does it and, in a vacuum, I'm okay with these moves. Its just the way FZ's FO handles these moves and the sheer volume of these moves that I don't like. With this FO, it is just a portent of things to come.
I thought we signed Tsutsugo toward the end of the 2023 season. Wasn't he with a different org at the beginning of 2023?