2024 Rosterbation

calsnowskier · Dec 7, 2023

SF11704 said:
Sorry for the following rant .... but I've just about had it with this team ..... Soto is now a Yankee ... he joins Judge , Stanton and the guy they also just got from the Red Sox. For as long As I can remember ... we have't landed anyone of note in quite some time. Either from the FA pool or via trades.

I look at the two big FAs this year and then I look at our team. I just can't imagine why they would want to come to SF to play. In the past 7 seasons we have played UNDER 500 ball 5 times. We had one 500 season (81-81) and our miracle season of 107 wins.
The Dodgers on the other hand have played great ball the past 7 years. They have had 5 seasons of over 100 wins. . If I'm a FA why would I want to come to SF. It's never going to be about money ... ever. They will get what they want from quite a few teams. IMHO .... they want to play on a winning team. They want to play on a team that is competitive.

I just don't believe we are competitive. Our record for the past 7 years says we aren't. Again, IMHO, I think we need to fix that first. Bringing in someone like Ohtani doesn't really solve that issue. May make the fan base happy ... for a while ... but it doesn't solve the issue. The Angels had Ohtani and Trout for 6 years ... and didn't make the playoffs .... you need a complete team. One superstar isn't going to solve your problems. Sort of like owning a house with both faulty plumbing and electric service and you decide to purchase a new BMW to put in your driveway .... it looks great .... but the electric and plumbing are still faulty ....you haven't addressed the core issues ...

I want this team to model what the Dodgers have done. Build the strongest TEAM you can and use the FA and trades to go safter certain pieces. Othani to the Dodgers doesn't make the Dodgers good ... they were good to begin with. Winning more than 100 games (5 times) in the past 7 season means you are good. Othani will make them better .... but he is not a lifeline ... they don't need a lifeline.

Sorry for the rant ..... but it just feels like we have played this same song ..... over and over and over ...

filosofy29 · Dec 7, 2023

While I 100% agree with the sentiment of your post 11704, I also didn’t want to pay prospects for Soto and then deal with overpaying to keep him too next year. Would rather just overpay next offseason and not give up the prospects.

Yamamoto should be a Giant unless he doesn’t want to be. They should overpay him imo.

LHG · Dec 7, 2023

filosofy29 said:
While I 100% agree with the sentiment of your post 11704, I also didn’t want to pay prospects for Soto and then deal with overpaying to keep him too next year. Would rather just overpay next offseason and not give up the prospects.

Yamamoto should be a Giant unless he doesn’t want to be. They should overpay him imo.

Agreed. The Giants would have probably paid more in prospects than the Yankees, just because the Yankees are in a different league than the Padres while the Giants are in the same division. It would probably have taken the Giants to offer Winn, Walker, Beck and Whisenhunt just to get close to the Yankees' offer. However, Harrison or Luciano would have had to be added to get the deal done. And then Soto gets to walk after 2024 as he has Boras for an agent so I doubt an extension would even be possible (of course, watch the Yankees announce some big extension before spring training, just because I wrote that last sentence).
However, as I think you and cal agree, SF11704's rant is spot on. I really like the house and car analogy.

SF11704 · Dec 7, 2023

LHG said:
Agreed. The Giants would have probably paid more in prospects than the Yankees, just because the Yankees are in a different league than the Padres while the Giants are in the same division. It would probably have taken the Giants to offer Winn, Walker, Beck and Whisenhunt just to get close to the Yankees' offer. However, Harrison or Luciano would have had to be added to get the deal done. And then Soto gets to walk after 2024 as he has Boras for an agent so I doubt an extension would even be possible (of course, watch the Yankees announce some big extension before spring training, just because I wrote that last sentence).
However, as I think you and cal agree, SF11704's rant is spot on. I really like the house and car analogy.

My issues were never with the Soto signing. That was just a trigger. The issue itself is much deeper IMHO. This team has played sub 500 ball for 5 of the last 7 years. The core of the team is weak offensively and defensively. After Webb the pitching becomes somewhat questionable.

My real concern is what I am seeing this off season ... like many of the off seasons before ...... are the people we are targeting actually real possibilities? Why would either Othani or Yamamoto sign with us when they could sign with another team for the same money (or close). No one or two players will bring this team roaring back into contention. This team, as currently configured is more than 20 games behind the division leader. We need to make this team more competitive. At least close the gap by 10 games. We need to be near a 90 win season in my opinion. Yamamoto would be a good acquisition I think. But how good, if we don't do something about the offensive and defense. I think we were pretty low in both of these areas as compared to the rest of the league.

Think about this for a minute ..... If we signed Ohtani and also signed Soto .... it would be a great off season for most Giant fans ....
But ..... always a but .... for six years the Angels had both Ohtani and Trout ..... and didn't make the playoffs ..... IMHO ... Ohtani and Trout are a better duo than Ohtani and Soto .... it goes much deeper than just one or two player acquisitions ......

Again .... just my 2 cents ....

LHG · Dec 7, 2023

SF11704 said:
My issues were never with the Soto signing. That was just a trigger. The issue itself is much deeper IMHO. This team has played sub 500 ball for 5 of the last 7 years. The core of the team is weak offensively and defensively. After Webb the pitching becomes somewhat questionable.

My real concern is what I am seeing this off season ... like many of the off seasons before ...... are the people we are targeting actually real possibilities? Why would either Othani or Yamamoto sign with us when they could sign with another team for the same money (or close). No one or two players will bring this team roaring back into contention. This team, as currently configured is more than 20 games behind the division leader. We need to make this team more competitive. At least close the gap by 10 games. We need to be near a 90 win season in my opinion. Yamamoto would be a good acquisition I think. But how good, if we don't do something about the offensive and defense. I think we were pretty low in both of these areas as compared to the rest of the league.

Think about this for a minute ..... If we signed Ohtani and also signed Soto .... it would be a great off season for most Giant fans ....
But ..... always a but .... for six years the Angels had both Ohtani and Trout ..... and didn't make the playoffs ..... IMHO ... Ohtani and Trout are a better duo than Ohtani and Soto .... it goes much deeper than just one or two player acquisitions ......

Again .... just my 2 cents ....

I totally agree with you. I do think that Yamamoto is someone the Giants can build around (and Ohtani for that matter but his cost is going to be much higher, make it more prohibitive for any team to build around. Also, I think Ohtani is a higher risk than some would like to acknowledge, due to the multiple major arm surgeries over the past 5 years). But the Giants have to commit to further building the farm as well.
Whether its on FZ or the ownership, the team hasn't fully committed to shipping off higher value veterans to get prospects. Its not that they have not done it, its that they've not done it more when they could have pulled those triggers. And while the farm system is improved compared to 5 years ago, it feels like it should be in much better shape than it is by now. cal has pointed this out before, but the team doesn't have a lot of blue chip prospects and the ones they do have have some concerns. If the ownership/FO committed to a full rebuild, we'd probably have a lot more depth and talent in the farm.
I have made comments before about the Angels having the two best MLBers currently playing and not done much with them. The response (not necessarily from board members in the Giants' forum but mainly Angels' fans) has usually been "but Trout has been hurt the past 6 seasons!" That isn't a valid argument. Trout has only missed significant time in 2 of the past 6 years. He's not played more than a 140 games in a season in that time but he's still played a significant enough time to make a difference. The Angels' problem, in my opinion, is not adequately stocking the farm system and relying too much on pitchers with injury histories. They've gone after cheaper pitchers on the market to fill in around injury prone pitchers they have developed. Meanwhile, they've also had really bad luck on some of the other big free agents they've signed (I did not see coming the sudden crash that Anthony Rendon had).
My conclusion is that the splashy free agent acquisition is to appease the masses and make money off their satiation. Ohtani would bring in the fans, for a while, but it would eventually not work if the team doesn't build a winner. And my concern, with any franchise, is declare poverty because of his deal, not acknowledging all the residual income that they are getting because of him. That would hamper not just free agent acquisitions but scouting and signing amateur players.

Robotech · Dec 7, 2023

@calsnowskier said that I need to come here more often. The problem is that I'm just totally, fully content as a Giants fan after the three World Series wins. LOL. After waiting my whole life for them to win (similar to Will Clark waiting his whole life to win the NL West in 1987), anything else that they do is icing on the cake for me.

It's also funny how the three World Series wins changed my perspective of 1987 to 2007. I first became a sports fan in 1987. I always had good memories of 1987 to 2007, but it was overshadowed by the painful memories (losing to the Cards in 1987, earthquake and swept by A's in 1989, last game of 1993, not making it out of the first round in 1997, 2000, and 2003, and of course, getting so close in 2002). Despite all of the Niners success, there was still a hole in my heart as a fan. After the three World Series wins and with how they won (with all of the luck going their way as opposed to how unlucky the Giants were in the past), it was simply a grand catharsis for me as a Giants fan. 1987 to 2007 is no longer overshadowed by the bad moments.

LHG · Dec 7, 2023

Robotech said:
@calsnowskier said that I need to come here more often. The problem is that I'm just totally, fully content as a Giants fan after the three World Series wins. LOL. After waiting my whole life for them to win (similar to Will Clark waiting his whole life to win the NL West in 1987), anything else that they do is icing on the cake for me.

It's also funny how the three World Series wins changed my perspective of 1987 to 2007. I first became a sports fan in 1987. I always had good memories of 1987 to 2007, but it was overshadowed by the painful memories (losing to the Cards in 1987, earthquake and swept by A's in 1989, last game of 1993, not making it out of the first round in 1997, 2000, and 2003, and of course, getting so close in 2002). Despite all of the Niners success, there was still a hole in my heart as a fan. After the three World Series wins and with how they won (with all of the luck going their way as opposed to how unlucky the Giants were in the past), it was simply a grand catharsis for me as a Giants fan. 1987 to 2007 is no longer overshadowed by the bad moments.

Yup, the 3 titles changed perspective a lot. I still think about 2002 sometimes but it doesn't feel nearly as bad. Nice to think the Angels got at least one championship in the history of the franchise. I missed the 1987 and 1989 issues (but remember all the reverberations of 1989 in the 1990 baseball cards that I collected) but 1993 was maddening and the late 90s/early 00s were frustrating (while also exciting, considering the early/mid 90s). Yet I still find myself ranting and raving about the current FO, player moves that happen/don't happen (real or rumored) and investing way too much into guys coming up through the farm system.

cal is right, come around more often. Its nice to have many (written) voices on this forum.

calsnowskier · Dec 7, 2023

Robotech said:
@calsnowskier said that I need to come here more often. The problem is that I'm just totally, fully content as a Giants fan after the three World Series wins. LOL. After waiting my whole life for them to win (similar to Will Clark waiting his whole life to win the NL West in 1987), anything else that they do is icing on the cake for me.

It's also funny how the three World Series wins changed my perspective of 1987 to 2007. I first became a sports fan in 1987. I always had good memories of 1987 to 2007, but it was overshadowed by the painful memories (losing to the Cards in 1987, earthquake and swept by A's in 1989, last game of 1993, not making it out of the first round in 1997, 2000, and 2003, and of course, getting so close in 2002). Despite all of the Niners success, there was still a hole in my heart as a fan. After the three World Series wins and with how they won (with all of the luck going their way as opposed to how unlucky the Giants were in the past), it was simply a grand catharsis for me as a Giants fan. 1987 to 2007 is no longer overshadowed by the bad moments.

We just need to get Brute over here. He said he may stop by and take a look…

calsnowskier · Dec 7, 2023

Robotech said:
@calsnowskier said that I need to come here more often. The problem is that I'm just totally, fully content as a Giants fan after the three World Series wins. LOL. After waiting my whole life for them to win (similar to Will Clark waiting his whole life to win the NL West in 1987), anything else that they do is icing on the cake for me.

It's also funny how the three World Series wins changed my perspective of 1987 to 2007. I first became a sports fan in 1987. I always had good memories of 1987 to 2007, but it was overshadowed by the painful memories (losing to the Cards in 1987, earthquake and swept by A's in 1989, last game of 1993, not making it out of the first round in 1997, 2000, and 2003, and of course, getting so close in 2002). Despite all of the Niners success, there was still a hole in my heart as a fan. After the three World Series wins and with how they won (with all of the luck going their way as opposed to how unlucky the Giants were in the past), it was simply a grand catharsis for me as a Giants fan. 1987 to 2007 is no longer overshadowed by the bad moments.

As I said over on Reddit, I am a content fan now as well. 3-2 as a lifetime championship record is more than acceptable. But I am still a fan and my heart accepts nothing less than a championship every single year. As completely insane as that expectation is.

Robotech · Dec 7, 2023

calsnowskier said:
We just need to get Brute over here. He said he may stop by and take a look…

Yeah, Brute is great. Remember Balzac and sayheykid? Those guys were also great on the ESPN board.

calsnowskier · Dec 7, 2023

Robotech said:
Yeah, Brute is great. Remember Balzac and sayheykid? Those guys were also great on the ESPN board.

I started reading very casually near the end of their run. I think I started reading the board around ‘03 or so and didn’t post in any regular fashion until around the ‘07 draft. I remember starting to actually get into conversations regarding Timmeh at about that time.

LHG · Dec 7, 2023

FZ, this isn't the free agent splash that you are looking for. Move along.

Padres, Giants Showing Interest In Harrison Bader

The Giants and Padres are among the teams showing interest in free agent center fielder Harrison Bader, tweets Jon Morosi …

www.mlbtraderumors.com

Sandisfan · Dec 7, 2023

Not that this news is conclusive...But... Rumors of the Doggies asking pitcher Joe Kelly if he would be willing to give up No. 17 if they sign Ohtani. It's where we expect him to end up anyway.

MarcoPolo · Dec 7, 2023

SF11704 said:
Sorry for the following rant .... but I've just about had it with this team ..... Soto is now a Yankee ... he joins Judge , Stanton and the guy they also just got from the Red Sox. For as long As I can remember ... we have't landed anyone of note in quite some time. Either from the FA pool or via trades.

I look at the two big FAs this year and then I look at our team. I just can't imagine why they would want to come to SF to play. In the past 7 seasons we have played UNDER 500 ball 5 times. We had one 500 season (81-81) and our miracle season of 107 wins.
The Dodgers on the other hand have played great ball the past 7 years. They have had 5 seasons of over 100 wins. . If I'm a FA why would I want to come to SF. It's never going to be about money ... ever. They will get what they want from quite a few teams. IMHO .... they want to play on a winning team. They want to play on a team that is competitive.

I just don't believe we are competitive. Our record for the past 7 years says we aren't. Again, IMHO, I think we need to fix that first. Bringing in someone like Ohtani doesn't really solve that issue. May make the fan base happy ... for a while ... but it doesn't solve the issue. The Angels had Ohtani and Trout for 6 years ... and didn't make the playoffs .... you need a complete team. One superstar isn't going to solve your problems. Sort of like owning a house with both faulty plumbing and electric service and you decide to purchase a new BMW to put in your driveway .... it looks great .... but the electric and plumbing are still faulty ....you haven't addressed the core issues ...

I want this team to model what the Dodgers have done. Build the strongest TEAM you can and use the FA and trades to go safter certain pieces. Othani to the Dodgers doesn't make the Dodgers good ... they were good to begin with. Winning more than 100 games (5 times) in the past 7 season means you are good. Othani will make them better .... but he is not a lifeline ... they don't need a lifeline.

Sorry for the rant ..... but it just feels like we have played this same song ..... over and over and over ...

Although I agree with a lot of this, I guess that I have a slightly different prospective overall.

1) They had their championship runs BECAUSE they *developed* key players in-house, and brought in FAs (or guys from the farm) to complement them (and who often had career years). Posey, Belt, Crawford, Sandoval, Schierholtz, Cain, Bumgarner, Lincecum, (and signed Cabrera, Pagan, Pence - since they didn't have HUGE salaries weighing down the club)

PS: The SF Giants had the greatest hitter in the history of the game for over 10 years, but won not a single championship because they couldn't afford to pay quality FAs (or half-way decent farm hands, NOT Bowker) to complement him. {{ OK, OK, the won the NLCS and went to the WS) }}. (Seriously, Neifi Perez? R U kidding me?) Hillenbrand? Steve Finley? José Castillo. Emmanuel Burriss (barf). And trading away Joe Nathan?

2) One of the biggest mistakes that the Giants have repeatedly made since 2010 is re-signing almost everybody on a championship team. Obviously you give a good contract to Posey and Cain and Lincecum. Duh. And I can't blame them for Pence (or Pablo) looked like good ideas at the time. But don't sign 2 or 3 or 4 year contracts with guys who are 33/34 or over! They signed too many expensive contracts to be able to bring on any GOOD (a bit above average - not even great) players. Well, Scutaro sort of worked out - but you really don't give a 37-year-old a 3 year contract for $6M per. He only played ONE season of that contract (quibblers might point out 10 or 15 games in 2013, but really?) Peavy got a big !KA-CHING! for a follow-on contract after the 2014 WS. He pitched OK in 15, but flailed in '16 while being paid $15M).

3) They signed older FA pitchers (true, pitching was the Gs strength, but they screwed the pooch on every older pitcher they signed). Zito ...

4) The 2014 team was what the Giants should be aiming for. Develop your farm, stock it with talent, and then let them loose with a few "extras". Just about everybody that came up through the Giants minors was playing well above league average, even Panic, Ishikawa and Susac. And the "sign ons" that year also did really well. Peavy really came through when Cain got hurt .

So I definitely agree with the sentiment "Build the strongest TEAM you can and use the FA and trades to go after certain pieces." The Giants should have tried to stack the minors with talent. Both by growing draftees and ALSO through trades at the July deadline to pick up talent. They didn't do so well over the past 5 years, even though they did pick up some serviceable guys and some pretty good ones. I hate the "shuffle-board" technique that FZ has employed - it really doewn't make players want to come here. However, there was SOME success : LaMonte Wade (via trade), Thairo Estrada (via trade), J.D. Davis (via trade), Wilmer Flores (FA), Yastrzemski (trade), Austin Slater (draft), Tyler Fitzgerald (draft, really too early to tell). Also, Webb (draft), DeSclafani (FA), Camilo Doval ("draft" - Intl FA), Tyler Rogers (draft), Keaton Winn (draft - too young to tell), Luke Jackson (FA), Marques Johnson (trade. He's only been in 'A' and AFL for the Giants but HOLY SHIT! his *highest* WHIP with the Gs is 1.0 in the AFL. I hate to get too excited about guys in 'A' ball but I will keep an eye on him ). So none of these guys are superstars (although a few could be considered to have shown streaks of 'star' potential). (Most of them) are guys that fill in for relatively cheap and give a bit more than a little above average, but most not star material. These are the guys that you fill out your team, and you sign a couple of stars (for not too long) to pave the way.

The Giants should NOT sign one superstar for a huge salary that will cripple the team for years with salary debt. Well, unless he's a starting pitcher 29 or under who has a career whip under 1.1 and with no history of injury.

SF11704 · Dec 8, 2023

MarcoPolo said:
Although I agree with a lot of this, I guess that I have a slightly different prospective overall.

1) They had their championship runs BECAUSE they *developed* key players in-house, and brought in FAs (or guys from the farm) to complement them (and who often had career years). Posey, Belt, Crawford, Sandoval, Schierholtz, Cain, Bumgarner, Lincecum, (and signed Cabrera, Pagan, Pence - since they didn't have HUGE salaries weighing down the club)

PS: The SF Giants had the greatest hitter in the history of the game for over 10 years, but won not a single championship because they couldn't afford to pay quality FAs (or half-way decent farm hands, NOT Bowker) to complement him. {{ OK, OK, the won the NLCS and went to the WS) }}. (Seriously, Neifi Perez? R U kidding me?) Hillenbrand? Steve Finley? José Castillo. Emmanuel Burriss (barf). And trading away Joe Nathan?

2) One of the biggest mistakes that the Giants have repeatedly made since 2010 is re-signing almost everybody on a championship team. Obviously you give a good contract to Posey and Cain and Lincecum. Duh. And I can't blame them for Pence (or Pablo) looked like good ideas at the time. But don't sign 2 or 3 or 4 year contracts with guys who are 33/34 or over! They signed too many expensive contracts to be able to bring on any GOOD (a bit above average - not even great) players. Well, Scutaro sort of worked out - but you really don't give a 37-year-old a 3 year contract for $6M per. He only played ONE season of that contract (quibblers might point out 10 or 15 games in 2013, but really?) Peavy got a big !KA-CHING! for a follow-on contract after the 2014 WS. He pitched OK in 15, but flailed in '16 while being paid $15M).

3) They signed older FA pitchers (true, pitching was the Gs strength, but they screwed the pooch on every older pitcher they signed). Zito ...

4) The 2014 team was what the Giants should be aiming for. Develop your farm, stock it with talent, and then let them loose with a few "extras". Just about everybody that came up through the Giants minors was playing well above league average, even Panic, Ishikawa and Susac. And the "sign ons" that year also did really well. Peavy really came through when Cain got hurt .

So I definitely agree with the sentiment "Build the strongest TEAM you can and use the FA and trades to go after certain pieces." The Giants should have tried to stack the minors with talent. Both by growing draftees and ALSO through trades at the July deadline to pick up talent. They didn't do so well over the past 5 years, even though they did pick up some serviceable guys and some pretty good ones. I hate the "shuffle-board" technique that FZ has employed - it really doewn't make players want to come here. However, there was SOME success : LaMonte Wade (via trade), Thairo Estrada (via trade), J.D. Davis (via trade), Wilmer Flores (FA), Yastrzemski (trade), Austin Slater (draft), Tyler Fitzgerald (draft, really too early to tell). Also, Webb (draft), DeSclafani (FA), Camilo Doval ("draft" - Intl FA), Tyler Rogers (draft), Keaton Winn (draft - too young to tell), Luke Jackson (FA), Marques Johnson (trade. He's only been in 'A' and AFL for the Giants but HOLY SHIT! his *highest* WHIP with the Gs is 1.0 in the AFL. I hate to get too excited about guys in 'A' ball but I will keep an eye on him ). So none of these guys are superstars (although a few could be considered to have shown streaks of 'star' potential). (Most of them) are guys that fill in for relatively cheap and give a bit more than a little above average, but most not star material. These are the guys that you fill out your team, and you sign a couple of stars (for not too long) to pave the way.

The Giants should NOT sign one superstar for a huge salary that will cripple the team for years with salary debt. Well, unless he's a starting pitcher 29 or under who has a career whip under 1.1 and with no history of injury.

This is a GREAT perspective what the Giants have done over the past 2 decades. Our overall views are actually very similar. Your response is well written and thought out while mine was a 'rant'. But there is one significant difference, and that is probably what caused my initial post. We are not looking at the same timeline. You have included the timeframe including the WS runs and all they did to get into that position. On the other hand I was focusing only on anything after 2016 (the last 7 years). So I should really be asking .... what happened in the past 7 years to alter the way the FO is now building their teams. As you noted we were very successful during the WS runs .... so what made them move in another direction after 2016 ......

calsnowskier · Dec 8, 2023

SF11704 said:
This is a GREAT perspective what the Giants have done over the past 2 decades. Our overall views are actually very similar. Your response is well written and thought out while mine was a 'rant'. But there is one significant difference, and that is probably what caused my initial post. We are not looking at the same timeline. You have included the timeframe including the WS runs and all they did to get into that position. On the other hand I was focusing only on anything after 2016 (the last 7 years). So I should really be asking .... what happened in the past 7 years to alter the way the FO is now building their teams. As you noted we were very successful during the WS runs .... so what made them move in another direction after 2016 ......

I hate to say it, but…

$$$

SF11704 · Dec 8, 2023

calsnowskier said:
I hate to say it, but…

$$$

I agree but it's really complicated. They will throw 435M on the table fior Judge but never actually sign him. Could be the same for Ohtani and Yamamoto.. large sums of money committed but nothing really spent. Looks good but doesn't yield sny real results

I also think the 'churn' process doesn't help at all. It's fine if you already have a solid team and go searching for hidden gold .... I just dont see it as a viable alternative for 'rebuilding' a team.that needs quite a few parts.

tzill · Dec 8, 2023

Robotech said:
Yeah, Brute is great. Remember Balzac and sayheykid? Those guys were also great on the ESPN board.

Don't sleep on GP.

He was the absolute best.

stanford the manford · Dec 8, 2023

MarcoPolo said:
Although I agree with a lot of this, I guess that I have a slightly different prospective overall.

1) They had their championship runs BECAUSE they *developed* key players in-house, and brought in FAs (or guys from the farm) to complement them (and who often had career years). Posey, Belt, Crawford, Sandoval, Schierholtz, Cain, Bumgarner, Lincecum, (and signed Cabrera, Pagan, Pence - since they didn't have HUGE salaries weighing down the club)

PS: The SF Giants had the greatest hitter in the history of the game for over 10 years, but won not a single championship because they couldn't afford to pay quality FAs (or half-way decent farm hands, NOT Bowker) to complement him. {{ OK, OK, the won the NLCS and went to the WS) }}. (Seriously, Neifi Perez? R U kidding me?) Hillenbrand? Steve Finley? José Castillo. Emmanuel Burriss (barf). And trading away Joe Nathan?

2) One of the biggest mistakes that the Giants have repeatedly made since 2010 is re-signing almost everybody on a championship team. Obviously you give a good contract to Posey and Cain and Lincecum. Duh. And I can't blame them for Pence (or Pablo) looked like good ideas at the time. But don't sign 2 or 3 or 4 year contracts with guys who are 33/34 or over! They signed too many expensive contracts to be able to bring on any GOOD (a bit above average - not even great) players. Well, Scutaro sort of worked out - but you really don't give a 37-year-old a 3 year contract for $6M per. He only played ONE season of that contract (quibblers might point out 10 or 15 games in 2013, but really?) Peavy got a big !KA-CHING! for a follow-on contract after the 2014 WS. He pitched OK in 15, but flailed in '16 while being paid $15M).

3) They signed older FA pitchers (true, pitching was the Gs strength, but they screwed the pooch on every older pitcher they signed). Zito ...

4) The 2014 team was what the Giants should be aiming for. Develop your farm, stock it with talent, and then let them loose with a few "extras". Just about everybody that came up through the Giants minors was playing well above league average, even Panic, Ishikawa and Susac. And the "sign ons" that year also did really well. Peavy really came through when Cain got hurt .

So I definitely agree with the sentiment "Build the strongest TEAM you can and use the FA and trades to go after certain pieces." The Giants should have tried to stack the minors with talent. Both by growing draftees and ALSO through trades at the July deadline to pick up talent. They didn't do so well over the past 5 years, even though they did pick up some serviceable guys and some pretty good ones. I hate the "shuffle-board" technique that FZ has employed - it really doewn't make players want to come here. However, there was SOME success : LaMonte Wade (via trade), Thairo Estrada (via trade), J.D. Davis (via trade), Wilmer Flores (FA), Yastrzemski (trade), Austin Slater (draft), Tyler Fitzgerald (draft, really too early to tell). Also, Webb (draft), DeSclafani (FA), Camilo Doval ("draft" - Intl FA), Tyler Rogers (draft), Keaton Winn (draft - too young to tell), Luke Jackson (FA), Marques Johnson (trade. He's only been in 'A' and AFL for the Giants but HOLY SHIT! his *highest* WHIP with the Gs is 1.0 in the AFL. I hate to get too excited about guys in 'A' ball but I will keep an eye on him ). So none of these guys are superstars (although a few could be considered to have shown streaks of 'star' potential). (Most of them) are guys that fill in for relatively cheap and give a bit more than a little above average, but most not star material. These are the guys that you fill out your team, and you sign a couple of stars (for not too long) to pave the way.

The Giants should NOT sign one superstar for a huge salary that will cripple the team for years with salary debt. Well, unless he's a starting pitcher 29 or under who has a career whip under 1.1 and with no history of injury.

I couldn't agree more. I've been saying this since '15 when they started giving long term 'loyality' contracts for a previous good season. As if we needed any further examples, just look to the Chase Center where the Warriors have gone from contenders to a middle of the pack squad.

In pro sports you need a solid young core under multi-year contracts that are on the upswing of their career. You don't need high $$ players who are on the downside that clog the roster.

Front offices seem to make the same mistakes over and over until teams devolve to a point where they are forced to rebuild. And we all know rebuilding is not a guaranteed process.

Don't assume fans want players who are no longer on the upside of their career, with few exceptions.
Don't offer contracts out of loyalty for past performances. Very few players are 'loyal' and most have more than enough wealth, they aren't charity cases