2023 Rosterbation

[calsnowskier]

I think that he is referring to Johnny Wholestaff. I think most people think of those types of games when they think of openers. I haven't looked yet, but I'd guess that most Giant openers in 2022 were for bullpen games.

I think (from memory, I maybe wrong on this) that Brebbia was primarily an opener for a “regular” starter (Junis and Wood, iirc). And he never gave up a run in his opens. I would say the track record for him as an opener is pretty solid (SSS? No causational connection? Possibly to both.)

 

[Mays-Fan]

I think (from memory, I maybe wrong on this) that Brebbia was primarily an opener for a “regular” starter (Junis and Wood, iirc). And he never gave up a run in his opens. I would say the track record for him as an opener is pretty solid (SSS? No causational connection? Possibly to both.)

Here's the pitchers' box score from 10/11 games Brebbia started:

 

[Mays-Fan]

Here's the pitchers' box score from 10/11 games Brebbia started:
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And here's the 11th (10 file limit on posts):

 

[Mays-Fan]

So, with few and poor exceptions, the "opener" gimmick tended to be of the "Johnny Wholestaff" variety.

 

[calsnowskier]

So, with few and poor exceptions, the "opener" gimmick tended to be of the "Johnny Wholestaff" variety.

6 of the 11 included Hjelle going multiple innings (but often not pitching effectively). So while those games LOOK like Wholestaff games, that was not the intention of those games.

If the opener is used with a decent #4 or #5 starter (Junis, Wood) and not a kid who isn’t ready yet (Hjelle), it can be a useful tool.

And again, I agree 100% that Wholestaff games are a bad idea, and are really just caused by the team being illprepared, roster-wise.

 

[tzill]

You don't find his 2022 season with the Padres at all concerning? Yeah, I understand it could well be a blip but it could also be a start of a trend.

At that price? No, I'm not that concerned

 

[tzill]

Bassitt off the board...Blue Jays 3/63

 

[LHG]

6 of the 11 included Hjelle going multiple innings (but often not pitching effectively). So while those games LOOK like Wholestaff games, that was not the intention of those games.

If the opener is used with a decent #4 or #5 starter (Junis, Wood) and not a kid who isn’t ready yet (Hjelle), it can be a useful tool.

And again, I agree 100% that Wholestaff games are a bad idea, and are really just caused by the team being illprepared, roster-wise.

I'd say the "starter" (not "opener", just to be clear) has to go at least 3 innings for the game to not be considered a bullpen game. I know that you mentioned that Hjelle was in 6 of those games and he typically performed poorly in them (with a couple of exceptions). However, he only went more than 2 innings 4 times.
I think, based on the box scores Mays shared, the "opener" was a bad idea in 2022. If Rodon is signed, I doubt we see much of an opener in 2023. If he is not signed, then it will probably depend on the health of the rotation. However, we'll see if either or both of Hjelle or Harrison are ready to step in for an injured starter.

 

[Mays-Fan]

Bassitt off the board...Blue Jays 3/63

The number of teams willing to max out their payroll grows larger every year. In the big picture, that is a good thing for MLB as a whole. Just not so good for us (in those years we seek to do so).

 

[Mays-Fan]

I'd say the "starter" (not "opener", just to be clear) has to go at least 3 innings for the game to not be considered a bullpen game. I know that you mentioned that Hjelle was in 6 of those games and he typically performed poorly in them (with a couple of exceptions). However, he only went more than 2 innings 4 times.
I think, based on the box scores Mays shared, the "opener" was a bad idea in 2022. If Rodon is signed, I doubt we see much of an opener in 2023. If he is not signed, then it will probably depend on the health of the rotation. However, we'll see if either or both of Hjelle or Harrison are ready to step in for an injured starter.

FYI, the methodology I used to find these was to look at ESPN's game log for Brebbia, and getting the box score for games where he was given a "GSC" (game score). Those are only given to starters.

 

[stanford the manford]

To take it a step further, since we didn't get Judge, the FO might look to tank this year. Paper it over with guys like Haniger and maybe a second- or third-tier SP so it looks like we tried so they can sell some tickets, but do a de facto tank.

They're been doing a slow-roll tank for a while.

The only things that will improve tix sales are a superstar draw (which we won't get), a competitive team in the west (maybe, but we won't know until the asb and it's very unlikely), and lower prices at the park (only games I attended last year is where we snagged $8 seats - still didn't fill the park)

 

[calsnowskier]

I'd say the "starter" (not "opener", just to be clear) has to go at least 3 innings for the game to not be considered a bullpen game. I know that you mentioned that Hjelle was in 6 of those games and he typically performed poorly in them (with a couple of exceptions). However, he only went more than 2 innings 4 times.
I think, based on the box scores Mays shared, the "opener" was a bad idea in 2022. If Rodon is signed, I doubt we see much of an opener in 2023. If he is not signed, then it will probably depend on the health of the rotation. However, we'll see if either or both of Hjelle or Harrison are ready to step in for an injured starter.

I don’t think you use an opener for Webb, Rodon or Cobb. But for Madaea, Wood or Disco? Maybe.


Again, it is a tool to be used for the back portion of the rotation. Not the front of it.

 

[Mays-Fan]

I don’t think you use an opener for Webb, Rodon or Cobb. But for Madaea, Wood or Disco? Maybe.


Again, it is a tool to be used for the back portion of the rotation. Not the front of it.

I guess as long as you are just shuffling the order of the the pitchers used, fine.

Obviously, as you've implied, you need to get a de facto quality start from whomever is supposed to pitch most of the game (for lack of a better term, I'll call him the "long guy").

I guess if the long guy only goes 2 or 3 innings, that sucks for the bullpen, but if he only lasted 2 or 3 innings as a true starter, that would suck for the bullpen, too.

I dunno, maybe I'm actually coming around. Either way, we need more and better SP's/long guys.

Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and "Iron Man" Joe McGinnity are rolling over in their graves. Gaylord Perry just spit up his manna. Wait, it looks like he's using it for something. Or is he?

 

[calsnowskier]

I guess as long as you are just shuffling the order of the the pitchers used, fine.

Obviously, as you've implied, you need to get a de facto quality start from whomever is supposed to pitch most of the game (for lack of a better term, I'll call him the "long guy").

I guess if the long guy only goes 2 or 3 innings, that sucks for the bullpen, but if he only lasted 2 or 3 innings as a true starter, that would suck for the bullpen, too.

I dunno, maybe I'm actually coming around. Either way, we need more and better SP's/long guys.

Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and "Iron Man" Joe McGinnity are rolling over in their graves. Gaylord Perry just spit up his manna. Wait, it looks like he's using it for something. Or is he?

I think the current official term for the “long guy” is “Bulk Pitcher”. That doesn’t sound right, so I doubt it will stick, but that is what I heard it referred to as a lot last season.

 

[calsnowskier]

I guess as long as you are just shuffling the order of the the pitchers used, fine.

Obviously, as you've implied, you need to get a de facto quality start from whomever is supposed to pitch most of the game (for lack of a better term, I'll call him the "long guy").

I guess if the long guy only goes 2 or 3 innings, that sucks for the bullpen, but if he only lasted 2 or 3 innings as a true starter, that would suck for the bullpen, too.

I dunno, maybe I'm actually coming around. Either way, we need more and better SP's/long guys.

Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and "Iron Man" Joe McGinnity are rolling over in their graves. Gaylord Perry just spit up his manna. Wait, it looks like he's using it for something. Or is he?

Todayspitchers are not the same as they were 40, 50, 60 years ago. If that is due to expansion, the specialization of the game, the pussification of the players or whatever other reason, it just is a fact. But complaining about it is pointless. We need to move with the times and adjust. Even if they refuse to get off our lawns.

 

[LHG]

Todayspitchers are not the same as they were 40, 50, 60 years ago. If that is due to expansion, the specialization of the game, the pussification of the players or whatever other reason, it just is a fact. But complaining about it is pointless. We need to move with the times and adjust. Even if they refuse to get off our lawns.

I wonder how long until some "innovative" FO comes up with the bright idea of lengthening starts from pitchers since everyone else is creeping toward short starts/openers.

 

[calsnowskier]

I wonder how long until some "innovative" FO comes up with the bright idea of lengthening starts from pitchers since everyone else is creeping toward short starts/openers.

I don’t think that will happen. Players right now are conditioned to go all out from pitch 1. They are paced to only throw about 80 pitches. Joe GM might WANT to get a rotation full of 250 IP guys, but there simply aren’t pitchers in existence who are conditioned to do that any more.


A track coach might want to take the best cross country runner and line him up in the 100, but the marathoner simply isn’t conditioned to run that race. Or vice versa.

 

[LHG]

I don’t think that will happen. Players right now are conditioned to go all out from pitch 1. They are paced to only throw about 80 pitches. Joe GM might WANT to get a rotation full of 250 IP guys, but there simply aren’t pitchers in existence who are conditioned to do that any more.


A track coach might want to take the best cross country runner and line him up in the 100, but the marathoner simply isn’t conditioned to run that race. Or vice versa.

That is where it would get innovative. Figure a way out to stretch guys through the farm to pitch longer. I wouldn't be surprised if that becomes a thing in 20 or 30 years.

 

[Mays-Fan]

I wonder how long until some "innovative" FO comes up with the bright idea of lengthening starts from pitchers since everyone else is creeping toward short starts/openers.

I think (purely speculatively) the biggest driver of the shorter starts of today is that the hitters are so much bigger, stronger, and quicker with better eyes than hitters of previous generations.

If Barry Bonds had played in the early 20th century after the "dead ball" era, he might have hit 100 HR's in a season. Or be hit 100 times.

 

[calsnowskier]

I think (purely speculatively) the biggest driver of the shorter starts of today is that the hitters are so much bigger, stronger, and quicker with better eyes than hitters of previous generations.

If Barry Bonds had played in the early 20th century after the "dead ball" era, he might have hit 100 HR's in a season. Or be hit 100 times.

If you throw in the possibility of him getting hit 100 times because of his ability to go yard (and hotdog them on occasion), than you also have to factor in other reasons he would be hit, or simply not pitched to at all.

Sad, but true.