POLL Would You Rather? Baker vs Burrow

[dtgold88]

I'm not ignoring that. He was really good 2nd half of 2018. That's a quarter of his NFL career. He was awful the other 75% of it. This doesn't mean I don't think he will be a really good QB moving forward, but he's been below average, on the whole, in the NFL. I just like Burrow to be better in the NFL. Doesn't mean was has to suck and the other has to be great.

Fair points, but also fair not to ignore he had arguably the worst coach the Browns have ever seen (think about that). when he had adults coaching he was as good or better than many QBs that year and pretty much every rookie in the history of the sport. I mean, the guy was told what formations work and he ignored it.

 

[dtgold88]

Serious question @ericd7633 ...do you really not see that your thoughts are clouded by recency bias? Unless you are just one of those who hates Baker (and I don't believe that is the case) I am very confident you would see things differently if Baker switched years and played better in 2019, while Burrow did the same and played worse in 2019.

Only difference is Baker was in a system suited to him in 2018, Burrow in 2019.

 

[ericd7633]

my quote from post 188

"OK...but he put up similar numbers to Burrow with a slightly higher QBR".

I had posted that QBR in other posts as well. Obviously referring to Burrow's time at LSU because, you know, 2018 happened.

Check your post #178. Then check my response. I said I disagree, because you implied that you were talking about Haskins 2018 vs Burrow 2019. Which I don't know how anyone can come to any other conclusion given what you said. Then you said what you said above.

Plus if you average out what Burrow's QBR was in 2018 and 2019 it's higher than Haskins was in 2018.

Burrow 2018: 78.4
Burrow 2019: 94.9
Avg: 86.65

Haskins QBR in 2018 was 84.8.

 

[dtgold88]

Check your post #178. Then check my response. I said I disagree, because you implied that you were talking about Haskins 2018 vs Burrow 2019. Which I don't know how anyone can come to any other conclusion given what you said. Then you said what you said above.

Plus if you average out what Burrow's QBR was in 2018 and 2019 it's higher than Haskins was in 2018.

Burrow 2018: 78.4
Burrow 2019: 94.9
Avg: 86.65

Haskins QBR in 2018 was 84.8.

numbers I used from college football reference used the older version of QBR. Haskins led 174-173.2

 

[ericd7633]

Serious question @ericd7633 ...do you really not see that your thoughts are clouded by recency bias? Unless you are just one of those who hates Baker (and I don't believe that is the case) I am very confident you would see things differently if Baker switched years and played better in 2019, while Burrow did the same and played worse in 2019.

Only difference is Baker was in a system suited to him in 2018, Burrow in 2019.

I thought Baker could be a good NFL QB. I had him as the 2nd rated QB in that class behind Darnold, which I think could go either way at this point.

I probably would have a different mind frame if you switched Baker's 2018 and 2019 seasons, because their would be a natural progression instead of a regression. Darnold hasn't been great but he at least showed some progression in his 2nd season. With that said both have something to prove.

I did watch a lot more Browns games in 2019 than 2018, one because they were in primetime more, and two because they were simply more interesting with OBJ and the circus that comes with that. His accuracy just wasn't there, his pocket presence was also lacking. I get things weren't perfect, but man he was surrounded by 2 pro bowl WR's and 2 pro bowl RB's.

We'll see what happens for him this season. I just like Burrow more.

 

[ericd7633]

numbers I used from college football reference used the older version of QBR. Haskins led 174-173.2

Okay so you're going off of 2018 Haskins and then combining 2018 and 2019 Burrow? In that case I'd still take Burrow as a prospect.

 

[Clayton]

Not wrong, but a lot of those same issues existed or were worse before and he performed very well, like a top 10 QB even and had a lot of people justifiably very excited about his potential going into last year. Namely, when there wasn't pressure, Baker went from very impressive rookie to a pedestrian sophomore.

I don't think Browns fans would be butthurt if he was just inside the top 10 QB conversation instead of some overpowered QB.

Some of those 8 games came in his "great year" so its not really something I had to separate.

I thought he was a mix of Goff and Jimmy G coming out so I think thats probably where he'll settle. A couple of wow years. A bunch of meh years.

He also isn't there yet. Burrow's floor is Baker Mayfield imo.

 

[dtgold88]

I thought Baker could be a good NFL QB. I had him as the 2nd rated QB in that class behind Darnold, which I think could go either way at this point.

I probably would have a different mind frame if you switched Baker's 2018 and 2019 seasons, because their would be a natural progression instead of a regression. Darnold hasn't been great but he at least showed some progression in his 2nd season. With that said both have something to prove.

I did watch a lot more Browns games in 2019 than 2018, one because they were in primetime more, and two because they were simply more interesting with OBJ and the circus that comes with that. His accuracy just wasn't there, his pocket presence was also lacking. I get things weren't perfect, but man he was surrounded by 2 pro bowl WR's and 2 pro bowl RB's.

We'll see what happens for him this season. I just like Burrow more.

As I said...while I choose Baker because I have seen some NFL success I certainly don't think out of line at all to pick Burrow.

I also get you weren't privy to the goings on with the Browns offense and Freddie specifically. It was clear Baker was far better with play action and in 12 personnel and Freddie stayed away from it. Why? I suspect because he wanted to follow Dorsey's lead and not be on the same page as the numbers guys. Or he was just insecure and wanted to show he could do everything himself.....another reason he ignored his OC and never let him call plays (even though freddie was failing).

 

[dtgold88]

Okay so you're going off of 2018 Haskins and then combining 2018 and 2019 Burrow? In that case I'd still take Burrow as a prospect.

I compared Haskins OSU career with Burrow's LSU career when it came to the numbers (ignored Burrow at OSU). No more, no less.

I also would take Burrow over Haskins.

 

[ericd7633]

I compared Haskins OSU career with Burrow's LSU career when it came to the numbers (ignored Burrow at OSU). No more, no less.

I also would take Burrow over Haskins.

Got ya. The way you framed it made it seem like you were comparing their last years in college respectively.

 

[dtgold88]

Got ya. The way you framed it made it seem like you were comparing their last years in college respectively.

Nope....only point was I thought it was absurd to say Burrow's numbers were far better than anyone as though 2018 didn't count.

 

[ericd7633]

As I said...while I choose Baker because I have seen some NFL success I certainly don't think out of line at all to pick Burrow.

I also get you weren't privy to the goings on with the Browns offense and Freddie specifically. It was clear Baker was far better with play action and in 12 personnel and Freddie stayed away from it. Why? I suspect because he wanted to follow Dorsey's lead and not be on the same page as the numbers guys. Or he was just insecure and wanted to show he could do everything himself.....another reason he ignored his OC and never let him call plays (even though freddie was failing).

I don't know the in depth stuff. I know Baker was really good the 2nd half of 2018 after the coaching change(I think I watched one of those games). I was told last off season it was mostly because of Kitchens. Kitchens was in charge in 2019, maybe that's the disconnect.

 

[ericd7633]

Nope....only point was I thought it was absurd to say Burrow's numbers were far better than anyone as though 2018 didn't count.

If you count 2018, they aren't. I don't think I ever said that though?

 

[dtgold88]

I don't know the in depth stuff. I know Baker was really good the 2nd half of 2018 after the coaching change(I think I watched one of those games). I was told last off season it was mostly because of Kitchens. Kitchens was in charge in 2019, maybe that's the disconnect.

This was the thought of many. I assumed it could be true, as well, until I saw Wylie's comments. Could have been sour grapes, but clearly he was right.

My thought on the choice of Freddie at the time was IF he was the best man for the job, fine, but don't hire him just because you could control him and/or were afraid to lose him. Clearly, it was the latter.

After hearing stefanski a number of times now I cannot believe anyone could sit in a half day of interviews with Freddie and Stefanski and think, "yeah....Freddie's our guy".

 

[dtgold88]

If you count 2018, they aren't. I don't think I ever said that though?

you didn't and that's the point. 2018 did happen and it counts.

 

[cwalke3408]

agree.

But then explain trubisky, josh allen, blake bortles etc all taken high that dont have the tape to back that up........

Even now, allen has deceptively looked "good" , that team has improved vastly overall, on the line, RB, and D. Allen has played a big role, but certainly not as a passer, his numbers just arent good.

They must have done something right to have teams take a shot at them. I didn't see much of Allen or Blake in college, so I'm not sure what their tape looked like. For Trubisky, guy looked "ok" but nothing really impressive in college but what do I know, I'm no expert. For Burrow, I've seen plenty to feel comfortable taking a shot on the guy as #1 pick, I think he'll be pretty good in the NFL. Felt the same for Baker coming out. It's splitting hairs picking among the two

 

[ericd7633]

you didn't and that's the point. 2018 did happen and it counts.

Yes I know. My very initial point was that I like Burrow's attributes better than Baker. Someone brought up Baker's accuracy. I provided how Burrow and Baker were similar in college. And then said based on last year, I'd project Burrows to be better in the NFL because Baker was off last year. I'm sure it'll rebound some but he did regress in accuracy last year, despite the offensive scheme. Frankly it was weird to see.

 

[CaptainStubing]

Haven't seen any average QBs break the rookie QB passing TD record in 13 games while dealing with coaching staff turnover midseason. I don't think anyone knows exactly what he is yet, but saying he's average is pretty short-sighted.

meh, Baker had 27 td's and 14 int's in that 'great' rookie season.

Lamar went 36-6 in his first full season. Mahomes went 50-12. those are great first seasons.

Jimmy G went 27-13 this season and people call him average. Baker had an 'average' year for an NFL qb in his rookie year and then an outright bad year this season after people had tape on him.

at this point, me calling him average is more than fair. he might not even be average.

 

[ducky]

Fair points, but also fair not to ignore he had arguably the worst coach the Browns have ever seen (think about that). when he had adults coaching he was as good or better than many QBs that year and pretty much every rookie in the history of the sport. I mean, the guy was told what formations work and he ignored it.

Disappointed by being overlooked in that post:

 

[wazzu31]

Burrow by a wide margin.

Burrow EASILY had the best season as a QB that we have ever witnessed in college football history. The guy looks extra-ordinary. His accuracy down the field looks next to none. Could he bust? Sure. Maybe he cant handle NFL pressure and reads. Maybe the lack of pure arm strength limits him a touch. But you still roll the dice with him because if he can handle those things, he can throw the ball 1000 times better than Mayfield can.

To me his floor is Kirk Cousins while his ceiling is the next Peyton Manning.

That’s not very nice, at least say he has top 10 GOAT QB talent. Eli > Peyton.