Wentz or Mayfield: who would you rather have?

[DutchBird]

Out of his 16 TDs in his first 2 years, I counted 4, maybe 5, that could be considered "garbage time", while just as many were pivotal scores in close games.

So 1/3 of his TD's is garbage time. When looking at his yards total, it is even worse. IIRC Jimmy Kempski compared his raw per game data (which are/were good) and put them in context of game situation. And then they suddenly were not so good anymore.

 

[dtgold88]

Absolute BS.

In 2016 the Eagles led the league in drops. That is the WR breaking the QB. Funny how you mention those teams. The 'no matter who plays WR' is BS. Sure, a good QB will lesten the impact of losing a WR (who also needs to still be a decent fit).

NE: HOF TE, and arguably the best QB ever to play the game. Still no slouches at WR.
NO, Indy, Pitt have always had at least one if not two very good to outright HOF level WR's playing.

In fact, GB proves the fallacy of your argument. How many SBs has Rodgers won with an average set of WR's and TE's?

All you are doing is proving my point. The QB makes most of these WRs what they are. Why was GB and their WRs so terrible when Rodgers went down in 2017? what happened to Indy's WRs in 2017 without Luck (and the year Peyton was out)? Have you ever seen the #s AB put up when Big Ben didn't play? You think Browns have same type of season with Kizer as their QB last year?

 

[dtgold88]

Not surprised 44-13 mayfield on the voting.

Mayfield took the browns from 0 wins to 7 wins.

Mayfield broke the rookie record for tds despite only starting 13 games

Wentz is very talented but can’t atay healthy.

Mayfield’s teammates would die for him while wentz’s teammates don’t even like him and prefer his backup.

Yep, and Wentz took his team from 7 to 7 as a rookie.

 

[Across The Field]

The only game that I can remember where it was Matthews winning a game by coming up clutch in key moments was the OT win in Dallas in 2016. In other games, I do not remember that.

Last game against the Giants in 2015, his TD in the 4th took a 1-point game and turned it into an 8-points game.
As you mention, his TD won the game against Dallas earlier that year.
Against Washington in 2014, his two TDs in the 2nd quarter took it from a double-digit Eagles deficit to a halftime lead.
There were probably 3-4 or so more TDs that occurred in games early where it was a 1-score or tie game.

 

[dtgold88]

I'm not taking every detail as gospel, but he certainly seems much more egotistical than Mayfield.

Gotta disagree on that one, at least not from what I've seen from them. Isn't to say I think Baker's ego hurts him and agree his teammates love him.

 

[DutchBird]

You even admitted he's had some friction, while Mayfield has had none, unless you count the ex-HC with whom everyone had friction because he was horrible.

Wow.... friction as is to be expected in ANY team where you have 53 individuals. And definitely within a locker room and organisation as diverse (in just about every aspect) as the Eagles.

In any team of that size, and with about any player put in the situation that Wentz was/is in, there will be friction. You are simply delusional if you think there is none - and yes, that does/would include the Browns.

Though admittedly, the Browns have stunk for so long and have been consistently so bad that with zero expectations, as soon as there are two wins in a season everybody will be happy by default.

Having some friction in this situation does not mean in any way that someone is (excessively) egotistical, or more egotistocal than just about any athlete playing at the level Wentz is (or pretty much any NFL star). It depends on what is to be done with it.

 

[dtgold88]

You even admitted he's had some friction, while Mayfield has had none, unless you count the ex-HC with whom everyone had friction because he was horrible.

On that I agree....I don't know of any friction he's ever had with a teammate. well, other than when he told Davis webb to F off when he told Baker to get him a towel. That's when I knew I loved that kid.

 

[Across The Field]

So 1/3 of his TD's is garbage time. When looking at his yards total, it is even worse. IIRC Jimmy Kempski compared his raw per game data (which are/were good) and put them in context of game situation. And then they suddenly were not so good anymore.

I mean, are you saying you can't say the same thing about a ton of other WRs? Hell, half of Julio Jones' TDs this last year came when ATL was 2+ scores ahead or behind.

 

[Across The Field]

Wow.... friction as is to be expected in ANY team where you have 53 individuals. And definitely within a locker room and organisation as diverse (in just about every aspect) as the Eagles.

In any team of that size, and with about any player put in the situation that Wentz was/is in, there will be friction. You are simply delusional if you think there is none - and yes, that does/would include the Browns.

Though admittedly, the Browns have stunk for so long and have been consistently so bad that with zero expectations, as soon as there are two wins in a season everybody will be happy by default.

Having some friction in this situation does not mean in any way that someone is (excessively) egotistical, or more egotistocal than just about any athlete playing at the level Wentz is (or pretty much any NFL star). It depends on what is to be done with it.

None of what you're saying makes Mayfield egotistical in any way though, and that was the crux of this. Even if you want to call them "hit pieces", I haven't seen one about him regarding his relationship with teammates.

 

[DutchBird]

All you are doing is proving my point. The QB makes most of these WRs what they are. Why was GB and their WRs so terrible when Rodgers went down in 2017? what happened to Indy's WRs in 2017 without Luck (and the year Peyton was out)? Have you ever seen the #s AB put up when Big Ben didn't play? You think Browns have same type of season with Kizer as their QB last year?

Huh?

Do you are saying that the QB's in Texas made DeAndre Hopkins to what he was/is? The mediocre stuff the Cardinals fielded made Larry Fitzgerald? Decrepit McNabb, Kolb, Foles and Vick made DeSean Jackson? Absolutely laughable.

If as a QB you do not have a WR that can bail you out regularly, you have a serious problem. It is as simple as that. One only has to look at the difference Jeffery has made for the Eagles. Same QB, massive difference. Same for Agholor finding his groove. Massive difference. And on both occasions, the same QB.

 

[DutchBird]

I mean, are you saying you can't say the same thing about a ton of other WRs? Hell, half of Julio Jones' TDs this last year came when ATL was 2+ scores ahead or behind.

With Matthews it was extreme. And people were hypih up Matthews as the super star WR for the Eagles. When he was replaced by Jeffery, the obvious difference between the two becomes clear.

 

[dtgold88]

Huh?

Do you are saying that the QB's in Texas made DeAndre Hopkins to what he was/is? The mediocre stuff the Cardinals fielded made Larry Fitzgerald? Decrepit McNabb, Kolb, Foles and Vick made DeSean Jackson? Absolutely laughable.

If as a QB you do not have a WR that can bail you out regularly, you have a serious problem. It is as simple as that. One only has to look at the difference Jeffery has made for the Eagles. Same QB, massive difference. Same for Agholor finding his groove. Massive difference. And on both occasions, the same QB.

There will be some who will play well regardless like Hopkins, or maybe Thomas, but you think you'd know who Edelman was if he played elsewhere? And why don't you explain why the stud GB WRs do nothing when Rodgers is out?

You think Browns win 7 games and WRs play well with Kizer again?

 

[Across The Field]

Huh?

Do you are saying that the QB's in Texas made DeAndre Hopkins to what he was/is? The mediocre stuff the Cardinals fielded made Larry Fitzgerald? Decrepit McNabb, Kolb, Foles and Vick made DeSean Jackson? Absolutely laughable.

If as a QB you do not have a WR that can bail you out regularly, you have a serious problem. It is as simple as that. One only has to look at the difference Jeffery has made for the Eagles. Same QB, massive difference. Same for Agholor finding his groove. Massive difference. And on both occasions, the same QB.

To be fair, the Eagles also have arguably the best TE in the NFL and one of the best offensive lines, as well. Jeffery has been fantastic when healthy regardless of where he was playing.

Both you and dtgold are making good points. Some WRs have thrived no matter who was QB, while some WRs have dipped dramatically in production when their stud QB went down.

 

[DutchBird]

None of what you're saying makes Mayfield egotistical in any way though, and that was the crux of this. Even if you want to call them "hit pieces", I haven't seen one about him regarding his relationship with teammates.

And there was nothing about Wentz either, until this hit-piece (which notably came at the height of theFoles vs Wentz debate). Let's see what happens when Mayfield ends up in a situation similar to what Wentz faced for the past two seasons, and see what comes out then.

 

[Across The Field]

With Matthews it was extreme. And people were hypih up Matthews as the super star WR for the Eagles. When he was replaced by Jeffery, the obvious difference between the two becomes clear.

It did?

 

[Across The Field]

And there was nothing about Wentz either, until this hit-piece (which notably came at the height of theFoles vs Wentz debate). Let's see what happens when Mayfield ends up in a situation similar to what Wentz faced for the past two seasons, and see what comes out then.

What situation? Getting hurt all the time and having a backup come in and win a SB?

 

[dtgold88]

To be fair, the Eagles also have arguably the best TE in the NFL and one of the best offensive lines, as well. Jeffery has been fantastic when healthy regardless of where he was playing.

Both you and dtgold are making good points. Some WRs have thrived no matter who was QB, while some WRs have dipped dramatically in production when their stud QB went down.

As I said, sure there are superstars who probably excel wherever. But was a time some thought Nelson was a star and he fell off the map when Rodgers was hurt. Moss looked done in Oakland and look what happened when he went to NE.

I'll take the stud QB over WR (or coach) any day of the week.

 

[DutchBird]

There will be some who will play well regardless like Hopkins, or maybe Thomas, but you think you'd know who Edelman was if he played elsewhere? And why don't you explain why the stud GB WRs do nothing when Rodgers is out?

You think Browns win 7 games and WRs play well with Kizer again?

No...

but to say the QB makes the WR is as stupid as saying the WR makes the QB. It is a combination of both, together with other aspects - like O-line play, other weapons, scheme fit, etc. etc.

Part of Edelman's success is the way he is used in the scheme of the Patriots. Same with Amendola. With the Eagles we have seen the difference with Agholor (outside vs slot).

If the QB makes the WR, Green Bay should have won more with a QB like Rodgers. If the WR makes the QB, then Arizona and Indy should have won more.

No, the Browns would not have onw 7 games with Kizer. Then again, the Browns would not have won 7 games with Mayfield starting and Hue coaching either.

 

[dtgold88]

And there was nothing about Wentz either, until this hit-piece (which notably came at the height of theFoles vs Wentz debate). Let's see what happens when Mayfield ends up in a situation similar to what Wentz faced for the past two seasons, and see what comes out then.

I agree I wouldn't read much into the hit piece, but not sure what you are referring to about seeing what happens when Baker faces what Wentz did. Faces what?

 

[dtgold88]

No...

but to say the QB makes the WR is as stupid as saying the WR makes the QB. It is a combination of both, together with other aspects - like O-line play, other weapons, scheme fit, etc. etc.

Part of Edelman's success is the way he is used in the scheme of the Patriots. Same with Amendola. With the Eagles we have seen the difference with Agholor (outside vs slot).

If the QB makes the WR, Green Bay should have won more with a QB like Rodgers. If the WR makes the QB, then Arizona and Indy should have won more.

No, the Browns would not have onw 7 games with Kizer. Then again, the Browns would not have won 7 games with Mayfield starting and Hue coaching either.

I wonder why the NE scheme wasn't working so well when Brissett had to play a few games. They won one game that the D did nearly all the work, and were shut out in another game.

So what happened to the Indy WRs when Luck was hurt? why did Indy go 1-15 when Peyton went down, only to be resurrected when Luck joined them?

Have you really not see what Jordy does with no Rodgers? He's useless.