Trade Suggestions Thread

[JBM73]

Rather than continue the Fire Holmgren thread, I thought I'd start a new one to discuss potential moves the Flyers should make. I know some of you advocate patience, but here's where I'm at: even if the Flyers remain patient and allow their talent to develop as expected over the next couple of years, there will still be holes to fill.

1) Puck-movement/speed on D - Timonen will be gone. Streit is slow. Gus hopefully develops into a reliable top 6. That still leaves at least one spot to fill. Offensive/puck moving d-men probably take the longest to develop out of all the positions. So, it's unlikely that Hagg or Ghost will be the answer in 2 years. 3-4 is probably a more reasonable expectation, so a move will need to be made to fill that hole.
2) Forward sniper - even if their young forward talent continues to develop, none of those guys projects as a sniper in the Jeff Carter mold. The Flyers need a forward who can score consistently from more than 5 feet in front of the net. A move will need to be made to fill that hole.
3) Better face-offs in the o-zone. I'm hoping Couturier continues to develop in this regard, and that some of G's struggles are related to his wrist injury. Also need Vinny to get back (no pun intended) to 50%+ form. No move needed.

Thoughts? What would you add to the list? Take off?

 

[wbon22]

They need something.
I think one thing that needs to happen as a decision on what is Berube's system? and is he the long term/season plus answer as a coach. For now lets say yes.
Then as mentioned we need to improve the blue line. Some steps in that direction have been taken but are a few years from paying off. Laurisden and Morin will both be welcome additions to the blue line bringing size and (yes) more mobility than Grossmann or Streit it would appear. A veteran puck mover/PP specialist who is not going to kill you on the 3rd pairing would be a nice addition, but that was supposed to be Streit and we are stuck with that contract...

IMHO at forward they need the Scot Hartnell who lined up with Giroux and Jagr...Since we cannot turn back the clock, the ideal would be to find a winger with some moxy who has the ability to shoot the puck from the dots to the arc. Who has some size or at least a willingness to get banged, and who can skate with top 6 NHL players.

 

[awaz]

i think the 1st pick this year, assuming it's a top 14 pick, needs to be on a top line sniper (nylander, vrana, virtanen). they typically can start making a difference quicker than dmen can.

on defense i dont think you have a whole lot of good options to improve it via trade or free agency. at least in terms of finding that #1 guy. i think you have to be patient and hope that morin/hagg/ghost fill that role. the only way i see something else being a good fix is if you can do a simmonds for kulikov type deal that cobie has discussed, and kulikov then pans out. is that the route you go though? basically giving up simmonds to skip a year or two of development for the d-prospect trio. serious question as i don't know how i feel about it.

i think i lean towards patience for now, and shoot to end up with

virtanen.giroux.voracek
schenn.couturier.simmonds
downie.laughton.read

morin.coburn
grossmann.ghost

as your top 9 and top 4.. in 2-3 years. obviously it won't look anything like that because hockey teams are usually blown apart on deadline day and draft day every year. but i think that's the route i would want to go.. and obviously for the next 2-3 years that will be a little uncomfortable as they try to compete with stop gap free agent signings

edit: also i have no idea what you do with the streit and hartnell contracts that run through then. but i think if you can move them, you move them.

edit2 (probably shouldve looked at capgeek first): you still have lecavalier under contract in 2-3 years too, so maybe BSchenn is available? or voracek? and have lecav fill in on the wing

 

[Cobiemonster]

2015 is Bobby Ryan's FA year so I would go hard for him then, but in the meantime, in the 2014 draft, depending on where they are, I would draft a guy like Virtanen(maybe they move up if they're lower in the draft) and I would let go of Kimmo and Mesz, and let these younger kids see what they have and see what they can do - maybe there's a trade out there for the Flyers that can make them better now but we don't honestly know

 

[awaz]

2015 is Bobby Ryan's FA year so I would go hard for him then, but in the meantime, in the 2014 draft, depending on where they are, I would draft a guy like Virtanen(maybe they move up if they're lower in the draft) and I would let go of Kimmo and Mesz, and let these younger kids see what they have and see what they can do - maybe there's a trade out there for the Flyers that can make them better now but we don't honestly know

there's a decent chance ottawa resigns him before he becomes a free agent though.. i think the only way they'd get ryan is if they trade for him at the deadline in 2015, and then sign him to a contract afterwards. i think he'll be too expensive for what the flyers can afford.. plus, big names like that get MASSIVE contracts and i dont think ryan is worth what he'll get in free agency.. he's less than a PPG player and a 30 goal guy, which is a good/great player, but he's going to get 100 point / 50 goal guy type money in free agency and i dont think the flyers can afford that.. and if they do, i dont think we'll like how they create the cap space to do so

definitely let mesz go.

fine with letting timo go, but i think he'll be the best bang for your buck option next summer if he chooses to come back, so i'd be fine with him coming back as a stop gap while we wait for morin/hagg/ghost. Mark Alt does intrigue me and if Bourdon wasn't pronger-esque broken, he'd intrigue me. i don't see any of the other young dmen has nhl difference makers.. vasilev i guess is interesting too, but who knows if he'll ever come over from russia.. i'm not counting on it

 

[Cobiemonster]

there's a decent chance ottawa resigns him before he becomes a free agent though.. i think the only way they'd get ryan is if they trade for him at the deadline in 2015, and then sign him to a contract afterwards. i think he'll be too expensive for what the flyers can afford.. plus, big names like that get MASSIVE contracts and i dont think ryan is worth what he'll get in free agency.. he's less than a PPG player and a 30 goal guy, which is a good/great player, but he's going to get 100 point / 50 goal guy type money in free agency and i dont think the flyers can afford that.. and if they do, i dont think we'll like how they create the cap space to do so

definitely let mesz go.

fine with letting timo go, but i think he'll be the best bang for your buck option next summer if he chooses to come back, so i'd be fine with him coming back as a stop gap while we wait for morin/hagg/ghost. Mark Alt does intrigue me and if Bourdon wasn't pronger-esque broken, he'd intrigue me. i don't see any of the other young dmen has nhl difference makers.. vasilev i guess is interesting too, but who knows if he'll ever come over from russia.. i'm not counting on it

1) As long as Melnyk is still the owner, he's not going to be able to afford a big contract for him, trust me on that one - and they need to improve their defense as well

2) I know this probably won't be the popular opinion on here, but I wouldn't mind the Flyers attempting to sign Dion Phaneuf - he's a very good d-man, gets a lot of unfair criticism, but he makes the Leafs a better team and if it wasn't for him, I don't think the Leafs would be anywhere close to being a contender for a playoff spot - it would cost a lot to get him, but he's very good imo

 

[awaz]

1) As long as Melnyk is still the owner, he's not going to be able to afford a big contract for him, trust me on that one - and they need to improve their defense as well

2) I know this probably won't be the popular opinion on here, but I wouldn't mind the Flyers attempting to sign Dion Phaneuf - he's a very good d-man, gets a lot of unfair criticism, but he makes the Leafs a better team and if it wasn't for him, I don't think the Leafs would be anywhere close to being a contender for a playoff spot - it would cost a lot to get him, but he's very good imo

1) fair enough. i dont know their finances. i dont mean to say i dont want him, just warry of the potential contract

2) i hate phaneuf, but i do think he's a pretty good dman. pending contract (as always ) i wouldn't hate the addition. i do worry that he doesn't move the puck as well as timonen does though. bigger hitter, better defender, bigger shot, but the outlet pass is the real missing piece on the blueline. granted, i dont watch a ton of leaf games and that's an aspect of the game that's hard to really compare unless you watch it a lot

 

[Cobiemonster]

1) fair enough. i dont know their finances. i dont mean to say i dont want him, just warry of the potential contract

2) i hate phaneuf, but i do think he's a pretty good dman. pending contract (as always ) i wouldn't hate the addition. i do worry that he doesn't move the puck as well as timonen does though. bigger hitter, better defender, bigger shot, but the outlet pass is the real missing piece on the blueline. granted, i dont watch a ton of leaf games and that's an aspect of the game that's hard to really compare unless you watch it a lot

Maybe the Flyers do need a bigger shot on the blueline? Remember Chris Pronger, not saying Phaneuf is as good but you need a guy on the backend on the PP that teams fear - teams would fear Phaneuf more than Kimmo - maybe if they put Phaneuf with a guy that can give the good first pass, it would work

I wouldn't mind seeing something like this:

Dion Phaneuf - Braydon Coburn
Nicklas Grossmann - Erik Gustafsson
Mark Streit - Oliver Lauridsen

 

[awaz]

Maybe the Flyers do need a bigger shot on the blueline? Remember Chris Pronger, not saying Phaneuf is as good but you need a guy on the backend on the PP that teams fear - teams would fear Phaneuf more than Kimmo - maybe if they put Phaneuf with a guy that can give the good first pass, it would work

I wouldn't mind seeing something like this:

Dion Phaneuf - Braydon Coburn
Nicklas Grossmann - Erik Gustafsson
Mark Streit - Oliver Lauridsen

heh, streit was supposed to be that guy

that d-crew doesn't look too bad to me. i still think we'd have the same 5 on 5 puck moving concern that we do now, but i wouldn't hate going in to next season with that. i guess youre moving LSchenn in this case? i'd prefer him to lauridsen on talent/potential, but 3.6 is a lot to pay an under-acheiving 6th dman so i'm ok with that too unless schenn improves greatly

 

[Cobiemonster]

heh, streit was supposed to be that guy

that d-crew doesn't look too bad to me. i still think we'd have the same 5 on 5 puck moving concern that we do now, but i wouldn't hate going in to next season with that. i guess youre moving LSchenn in this case? i'd prefer him to lauridsen on talent/potential, but 3.6 is a lot to pay an under-acheiving 6th dman so i'm ok with that too unless schenn improves greatly

They could move Luke Schenn for either a forward or maybe they get a more offensive guy on defense

 

[flyersfan4706]

Nothing drastic please. I've seen both Jake Virtanen and Anthony Deangelo (offensive defenseman) ranked from the high 1st round to early 2nd. If we could land both of them I'd cry salty tears of joy

 

[JBM73]

I just want to point out again that some of you are being way too optimistic in terms of the time frame for some of our young offensive defensemen to step in. Those guys take time. Otherwise, some great discussion. I think it depends on when you believe the Flyers will truly be able to compete for the Cup. Homer thought it was this year, and gambled on Streit and LeCavalier. Turns out he was dreadfully wrong, and in a few years those contracts will be a real drag and we won't be able to amnesty them.

If you want this team to be a true Cup contender in the couple of years, moves will absolutely be needed. It's possible but highly unlikely that the 2014 1st round pick will be a major contributor by then, even if it's a forward sniper. Ghost, Morin and Hagg are at least 3-4 years away from having an impact. If you're willing to wait that long then fine. Stand pat, draft well, and let the talent develop. If you want to take advantage of the time that LeCavalier and Streit will still be contributors, better get that sniper and puck-moving d-man via trade or free agency NOW.

Would you trade Simmonds for Vanek, and gamble that you can resign him? Laughton and Mez (for Cap purposes) for Kulikov? Again, someone more knowledgeable than myself or Holmgren needs to truly evaluate where this team is at, and where they can be over the next few years.

 

[awaz]

I just want to point out again that some of you are being way too optimistic in terms of the time frame for some of our young offensive defensemen to step in. Those guys take time. Otherwise, some great discussion. I think it depends on when you believe the Flyers will truly be able to compete for the Cup. Homer thought it was this year, and gambled on Streit and LeCavalier. Turns out he was dreadfully wrong, and in a few years those contracts will be a real drag and we won't be able to amnesty them.

If you want this team to be a true Cup contender in the couple of years, moves will absolutely be needed. It's possible but highly unlikely that the 2014 1st round pick will be a major contributor by then, even if it's a forward sniper. Ghost, Morin and Hagg are at least 3-4 years away from having an impact. If you're willing to wait that long then fine. Stand pat, draft well, and let the talent develop. If you want to take advantage of the time that LeCavalier and Streit will still be contributors, better get that sniper and puck-moving d-man via trade or free agency NOW.

Would you trade Simmonds for Vanek, and gamble that you can resign him?

Laughton and Mez (for Cap purposes) for Kulikov?

Again, someone more knowledgeable than myself or Holmgren needs to truly evaluate where this team is at, and where they can be over the next few years.

i said 2-3, might've been a little on the optimistic side, but not too ridiculous. if that was meant for me

nope.

nope.

patience is the way to go IMO. even if it means a mediocre team for 3-4 years. sign stop gap like contracts (i.e. timonen or phaneuf if you can keep it short term) to see if you can catch a hot streak during one of those seasons.. then make a big deadline deal if you think you have it going

 

[Cobiemonster]

I just want to point out again that some of you are being way too optimistic in terms of the time frame for some of our young offensive defensemen to step in. Those guys take time. Otherwise, some great discussion. I think it depends on when you believe the Flyers will truly be able to compete for the Cup. Homer thought it was this year, and gambled on Streit and LeCavalier. Turns out he was dreadfully wrong, and in a few years those contracts will be a real drag and we won't be able to amnesty them.

If you want this team to be a true Cup contender in the couple of years, moves will absolutely be needed. It's possible but highly unlikely that the 2014 1st round pick will be a major contributor by then, even if it's a forward sniper. Ghost, Morin and Hagg are at least 3-4 years away from having an impact. If you're willing to wait that long then fine. Stand pat, draft well, and let the talent develop. If you want to take advantage of the time that LeCavalier and Streit will still be contributors, better get that sniper and puck-moving d-man via trade or free agency NOW.

Would you trade Simmonds for Vanek, and gamble that you can resign him? Laughton and Mez (for Cap purposes) for Kulikov? Again, someone more knowledgeable than myself or Holmgren needs to truly evaluate where this team is at, and where they can be over the next few years.

Good questions and points - if you're going to trade for Vanek, it better be an absolute 100% agreement that you can re-sign him - I'm hoping if they trade for him, that behind the scenes they work with him on an extension - but honestly, I wouldn't make a move for Vanek, I've thought all along he's going to Minnesota

I would wait until the 2015 offseason to sign Bobby Ryan, he would be a strong fit on this team and as I've said before I don't think the Sens will re-sign him, in all honesty

I would love to have Kulikov no doubt, I've lobbied for him - maybe they can get a deal done for him but it would hurt giving up Scott Laughton

That's why I've said, if the Flyers are going to do something big this upcoming offseason, it should be for Dion Phaneuf - very good defenseman, gets a lot of unfair criticism but he would give the Flyers a different dimension on defense and you're not giving up any of your prospects or key players to get him - of course it would cost a lot but the cap is going up and Kimmo/Mesz are off the books so you might be able to cover Phaneuf's salary with those two guys heading off the books(also they have to re-sign Steve Mason at some point too, so that's a thing to think about)

 

[JBM73]

i said 2-3, might've been a little on the optimistic side, but not too ridiculous. if that was meant for me

nope.

nope.

patience is the way to go IMO. even if it means a mediocre team for 3-4 years. sign stop gap like contracts (i.e. timonen or phaneuf if you can keep it short term) to see if you can catch a hot streak during one of those seasons.. then make a big deadline deal if you think you have it going

C'mon, awaz. There's a HUGE difference between 2-3 years and 3-4 years. J/K.

As long as we recognize that, and go into rebuilding mode and dump a few vets instead of pissing more money and draft positions away, I'm fine with it.

 

[awaz]

C'mon, awaz. There's a HUGE difference between 2-3 years and 3-4 years. J/K.

As long as we recognize that, and go into rebuilding mode and dump a few vets instead of pissing more money and draft positions away, I'm fine with it.

haha just checking! i try to be realistic with the youngsters!

and your second point is the key i think. the flyers have kinda used all their bullets in terms of being able to build a stanley cup contender through trades and free agency. they just don't the value to acquire everything they need, without making holes elsewhere. they have this year's first round pick and laughton as really the only two pieces that aren't on the team now, that could bring in a bonafide difference maker that could help right now. so hopefully they recognize that, rather than starting blowing things up to bring in expensive FAs and trades

 

[JBM73]

haha just checking! i try to be realistic with the youngsters!

and your second point is the key i think. the flyers have kinda used all their bullets in terms of being able to build a stanley cup contender through trades and free agency. they just don't the value to acquire everything they need, without making holes elsewhere. they have this year's first round pick and laughton as really the only two pieces that aren't on the team now, that could bring in a bonafide difference maker that could help right now. so hopefully they recognize that, rather than starting blowing things up to bring in expensive FAs and trades

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure I completely agree. If you can move Simmonds for a sniper-type, granted not a 40+ goal scorer, but perhaps a 30 goal scorer but lose some physicality, what hole are you creating? You're replacing a grinder of which this team is flush for an area of need, sniper. Now yes, improving the team much beyond that probably does involve moving Laughton. That's where your player evaluation comes in. You and I really have no idea how good Laughton could be, or how good potential trade candidates could be. Good teams have the right personnel making the right evaluations leading to the right trades. The Blackhawks stole Patrick Sharp for a bag of pucks. That's what good GMs do. Bad GMs receive the bag of pucks. My issue with Holmgren and his team is not that they're not good talent evaluators - they are - they're just poor at deciding what TYPE of talent this team needs.

 

[Maverick426h]

Even if you could pull off such a miracle trade, there aren't many 30 goal scorers in this league and Simmonds netted 28 in his first season with us. Of the guys on pace for 30 goals this season (about 30), only a handful of them play for losing teams that likely won't make the playoffs and would be willing to wheel and deal this early on.

Bobby Ryan OTT
Bryan Little WINN
David Perron EDM
Taylor Hall EDM
Matt Moulson BUFF

Three of these guys were just recently traded while the other two just signed long term contract extensions. How exactly are we going to trade for one of these guys, let alone others that are on pace for 30+ on playoff teams? We'd have to blow up our whole team to make it happen and successful teams will not be interested.

I would much rather hold onto Simmonds and trust that he'll get back to his scoring form, then maybe someday net 30 himself while on the top line with G. Until then, Raffl is getting it done for now all over the ice.

I just don't think any team is willing to take Hartnell, Meszaros (or roughly $9 million worth of players we can do without) and a pick for their top sniper.

 

[JBM73]

I'm not talking just about goals scored. I'm talking about the WAY they are scored. The Flyers need someone who can shoot the puck, not just knock in some rebounds. They have too many passers and crash the net guys, but no one who can effectively score form the circles. Plus, you're looking at current stats, not potential. Good GMs find guys who are underperforming in their current situation, but could blossom in their team's system. Vanek is a good example. Is he on pace for 30 goals this year? No. Is he a legitimate sniper capable of 30+ goals? Absolutely. Sell high, buy low. Be able to see the potential, not just the current performance. Was Patrick Sharp on pace to score 30 goals when he was traded? No, but he's on pace for 35 this year. My point is that the Flyers have no sniper who can shoot the puck effectively and consistently either on the team on in the pipeline. One won't magically appear. If your draft strategy has primarily been to draft best player available regardless of need, you have to be willing to trade surplus pieces to fill areas of need. Laughton is a surplus piece. The Flyers have needs and will have the same needs next year and the year after that. Laughton right now is "high". Is he a legitimate stud player? Neither you nor I know for sure, but the Flyers talent evaluators need to know. If his ceiling is really as a 3rd line center in the NHL but he could fetch a potential top 4 puck moving d-man or potential 30+ goal sniper, you need to make the trade. Again, a great GM will win the trade. A good GM will at least break-even, which would be a win for the Flyers overall. A bad GM will lose the trade, such as to trade his team's only potential sniper now on pace for 32 goals for another slow defensive defenseman....

 

[Cobiemonster]

I'm not talking just about goals scored. I'm talking about the WAY they are scored. The Flyers need someone who can shoot the puck, not just knock in some rebounds. They have too many passers and crash the net guys, but no one who can effectively score form the circles. Plus, you're looking at current stats, not potential. Good GMs find guys who are underperforming in their current situation, but could blossom in their team's system. Vanek is a good example. Is he on pace for 30 goals this year? No. Is he a legitimate sniper capable of 30+ goals? Absolutely. Sell high, buy low. Be able to see the potential, not just the current performance. Was Patrick Sharp on pace to score 30 goals when he was traded? No, but he's on pace for 35 this year. My point is that the Flyers have no sniper who can shoot the puck effectively and consistently either on the team on in the pipeline. One won't magically appear. If your draft strategy has primarily been to draft best player available regardless of need, you have to be willing to trade surplus pieces to fill areas of need. Laughton is a surplus piece. The Flyers have needs and will have the same needs next year and the year after that. Laughton right now is "high". Is he a legitimate stud player? Neither you nor I know for sure, but the Flyers talent evaluators need to know. If his ceiling is really as a 3rd line center in the NHL but he could fetch a potential top 4 puck moving d-man or potential 30+ goal sniper, you need to make the trade. Again, a great GM will win the trade. A good GM will at least break-even, which would be a win for the Flyers overall. A bad GM will lose the trade, such as to trade his team's only potential sniper now on pace for 32 goals for another slow defensive defenseman....

The key is, the Flyers need to have a plan and know that if they're trading Scott Laughton, that whatever they already have at center, will be there in the future

It'll be interesting to see what happens - it also has partly to do with the defensemen in the system - they don't really know if those guys will turn out to be good so maybe it speeds up the decision to make a move