Top 10 poll: #7 player ever

[calsnowskier]

1) Babe Ruth (defeated Willie Mays 23-9)
2) Willie Mays (defeated Barry Bonds 26-11)
3) Ted Williams (defeated Barry Bonds 18-17)
4) Barry Bonds (defeated Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb 20-11-8)
5) Hank Aaron (defeated Ty Cobb 17-16)
6) Ty Cobb (defeated Lou Gehrig 24-9)

Who is the #7 player ever? Vote for your top 3. This poll will close Friday AM.

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[LHG]

I think that this is where pitchers need to be really considered. Yeah, Gehrig was really good and is in the mix but I have Walter Johnson, Cy Young and Rogers Hornsby as just above him.

 

[calsnowskier]

I think we have found the cliff with this spot. We are officially entering a fresh tier.

I will vote Hornsby, but my other two noms are up for grabs and will be influenced by the debate. I vited Clemens last time, but there ere strong arguments for Walter as the top pitcher, so I am not certain between the two. But is it time to bring in Henderson, Robinson or Schmidt? Bench? Do I go with the active Ohtani or stick with the tried/true Wagner? Is it time to acknowledge ARod, or is he permanently excluded from this list?

 

[calsnowskier]

I think that this is where pitchers need to be really considered. Yeah, Gehrig was really good and is in the mix but I have Walter Johnson, Cy Young and Rogers Hornsby as just above him.

Gehrig still isn’t a real consideration for me. I haven’t seen any real arguments FOR him yet to gain my vote.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Gehrig still isn’t a real consideration for me. I haven’t seen any real arguments FOR him yet to gain my vote.

i dont think you can be an overall top 10 if you were not either the face of your team or the face of your generation... Gehrig, although one of the all time greats, was overshadowed by a better player on his own team.... for that reason alone, i cant vote for him over a player like Mickey mantle...

 

[calsnowskier]

i dont think you can be an overall top 10 if you were not either the face of your team or the face of your generation... Gehrig, although one of the all time greats, was overshadowed by a better player on his own team.... for that reason alone, i cant vote for him over a player like Mickey mantle...

I agree with this IN GENERAL, but I don’t think I am as rigid with it as you are. But it does basically feel right.

In this context, what is a “generation”? 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?

 

[LHG]

I think we have found the cliff with this spot. We are officially entering a fresh tier.

I will vote Hornsby, but my other two noms are up for grabs and will be influenced by the debate. I vited Clemens last time, but there ere strong arguments for Walter as the top pitcher, so I am not certain between the two. But is it time to bring in Henderson, Robinson or Schmidt? Bench? Do I go with the active Ohtani or stick with the tried/true Wagner? Is it time to acknowledge ARod, or is he permanently excluded from this list?

I think Walter Johnson is the strongest candidate of all left. He almost single-handedly evaluated a rather mediocre franchise into a contender ballclub. He was not only the face of the franchise, he was the face of pitching. Had Cy Young not come along earlier, the best pitcher in MLB would be earning the Walter Johnson Award. Young only gets it because he was first but he wasn't better. Consider how long he held the most strikeouts in a career record (50+ years) and the fact that he was more dominant, based on WAR (166.9 vs 127), WAR7 (91.1 vs 65.9) and ERA+ (147 vs 143) than Clemens, and he gets my vote.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I agree with this IN GENERAL, but I don’t think I am as rigid with it as you are. But it does basically feel right.

In this context, what is a “generation”? 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?

nothing really set... its a feel word... for sure... but irrelevant for a guy like Gehrig, as he played the vast majority of his career with Ruth....

 

[LHG]

I agree with this IN GENERAL, but I don’t think I am as rigid with it as you are. But it does basically feel right.

In this context, what is a “generation”? 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?

Great question. In general, a generation is, if I remember correctly, 40 years (but that may have changed). But what is a generation in baseball? Is it based on the fans? The players? If the latter, I'd say every 10 years starts a new generation of baseball players but, considering how long really good players last, 15 to 20 years may be a better standard of measurement. Of course, then comes the question, how do you delineate one generation from the next? Is it based on some nebulous standard (i.e. dead ball, steroids, amphetamines, etc) or determine, like I think milk did, who is the greatest of a certain era and put that generation on his career?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think Walter Johnson is the strongest candidate of all left. He almost single-handedly evaluated a rather mediocre franchise into a contender ballclub. He was not only the face of the franchise, he was the face of pitching. Had Cy Young not come along earlier, the best pitcher in MLB would be earning the Walter Johnson Award. Young only gets it because he was first but he wasn't better. Consider how long he held the most strikeouts in a career record (50+ years) and the fact that he was more dominant, based on WAR (166.9 vs 127), WAR7 (91.1 vs 65.9) and ERA+ (147 vs 143) than Clemens, and he gets my vote.

i have no case against him... i am just not voting for anyone who played before the color barrier anymore... this list is too dominated by that generation...


same is true for Hornsby... i have no argument against him... just trying to get more modern players to get more recognition....

 

[redseat]

Voted

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Great question. In general, a generation is, if I remember correctly, 40 years (but that may have changed). But what is a generation in baseball? Is it based on the fans? The players? If the latter, I'd say every 10 years starts a new generation of baseball players but, considering how long really good players last, 15 to 20 years may be a better standard of measurement. Of course, then comes the question, how do you delineate one generation from the next? Is it based on some nebulous standard (i.e. dead ball, steroids, amphetamines, etc) or determine, like I think milk did, who is the greatest of a certain era and put that generation on his career?

again, i dont think it is set in stone... there are periods of baseball that stand out, so it is really the best of those periods...

 

[msgkings322]

I think we have found the cliff with this spot. We are officially entering a fresh tier.

I will vote Hornsby, but my other two noms are up for grabs and will be influenced by the debate. I vited Clemens last time, but there ere strong arguments for Walter as the top pitcher, so I am not certain between the two. But is it time to bring in Henderson, Robinson or Schmidt? Bench? Do I go with the active Ohtani or stick with the tried/true Wagner? Is it time to acknowledge ARod, or is he permanently excluded from this list?

Musial has to be in the mix here too

 

[calsnowskier]

Great question. In general, a generation is, if I remember correctly, 40 years (but that may have changed). But what is a generation in baseball? Is it based on the fans? The players? If the latter, I'd say every 10 years starts a new generation of baseball players but, considering how long really good players last, 15 to 20 years may be a better standard of measurement. Of course, then comes the question, how do you delineate one generation from the next? Is it based on some nebulous standard (i.e. dead ball, steroids, amphetamines, etc) or determine, like I think milk did, who is the greatest of a certain era and put that generation on his career?

In general (not based on what we are discussing here), a “generation” is approximately 20-25 years. But that is based on birthing, not a prime athletic career.

I would love to see a WAR5 stat based on a rolling calendar. Who are the top 3 WAR5 players for ‘41-‘45? ‘63-‘67?

 

[calsnowskier]

Musial has to be in the mix here too

If you compare his numbers to years that Mays didn’t play, he was clearly better.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

id say some of the more common eras-

the pre 1900 era

the pre Ruth Era- 1901-1920

the pre color barrier 1921-1944

the pre expansion era- 1945- 1960

the "boring" generation 1961-1994

the steroid generation 1995- 2007

the post steroidt- 2008- 2021

THe universal DH- 2022-??

 

[calsnowskier]

Voted

This is the nom stage. You can vote for 3 here.

 

[msgkings322]

Great question. In general, a generation is, if I remember correctly, 40 years (but that may have changed). But what is a generation in baseball? Is it based on the fans? The players? If the latter, I'd say every 10 years starts a new generation of baseball players but, considering how long really good players last, 15 to 20 years may be a better standard of measurement. Of course, then comes the question, how do you delineate one generation from the next? Is it based on some nebulous standard (i.e. dead ball, steroids, amphetamines, etc) or determine, like I think milk did, who is the greatest of a certain era and put that generation on his career?

Sociological “generations” like Baby Boomers and Gen X and so on are also 15-20 years

 

[calsnowskier]

Rogers Hornsby Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Rogers Hornsby. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

Honus Wagner Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Honus Wagner. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

I understand and acknowledge Milk’s complaint about the focus on the old-timers, but these two are just OMG good. Fewer teams, color barrier, playing against farmers and grocery clerks are all legit arguments against, though.

 

[msgkings322]

i have no case against him... i am just not voting for anyone who played before the color barrier anymore... this list is too dominated by that generation...


same is true for Hornsby... i have no argument against him... just trying to get more modern players to get more recognition....

Wait I just checked. So far our list of 6 only has 2 that played before the color barrier was broken. Heck 3 of the 6 are black players. I’m wondering when the first Latino will make the list. ARod I guess?