Top 10 poll: #4 player ever

[calsnowskier]

that wasnt my point... i dont care... in context i was saying that Bonds is the reason Steroids is villified... bonds really ruined Baseball in many ways...

without bonds, clemens would probably be in the HOF by now... all steroid players would IMO...

Because he was prickly to the beats. The beats are just a bunch of whiny little bitches.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Because he was prickly to the beats. The beats are just a bunch of whiny little bitches.

yes they are.... all beats... not to tangent this even more, but beats have always been more about their "friends" than doing their jobs correctly...

 

[jarntt]

Steroids doesn’t help hand/eye, which is primarily what hitting is, though. Bonds knew the strike zone so only swung at pitches he was able to do something with. He wasn’t getting HRs off checked swings.

That's not true. When you just miss a ball and it still goes out for a homer, it helps you. When you hit a line drive out because you have extra power behind it, it helps you. When you hit a ball slightly, but not too badly, off the end of the bat and it still goes out, it helps you. When your bat speed is faster it helps you. The comparison isn't making you or I a 70 HR hitter by taking steroids, it's about making an already All Star player an All Time great.

 

[Clayton]

I am no teenager. I lived through the era.

Both were good players, but both were middling at best when talking about the best players in the game. Sosa, in particular, was hardly anything. Mac was a basher, but he had major holes in his game.

Anderson was the MAJOR sore thumb that broke everything, though.

Clemens is 8th in all time WAR. This is really what breaks the era. You have the 2 best players in the era: One at the center of the investigations and the 2nd breaking records. Leaders are supposed to be role models

 

[calsnowskier]

That's not true. When you just miss a ball and it still goes out for a homer, it helps you. When you hit a line drive out because you have extra power behind it, it helps you. When you hit a ball slightly, but not too badly, off the end of the bat and it still goes out, it helps you. When your bat speed is faster it helps you. The comparison isn't making you or I a 70 HR hitter by taking steroids, it's about making an already All Star player an All Time great.

Bonds was already an all time great. He was not merely an “all star” player. He was the best player in the game, then some comparatively middling players passed him up. He was just keeping up with the Joneses, but he kept up better than anyone else was able to because he was one of the all time elites already.

 

[Clayton]

Bonds was already an all time great. He was not merely an “all star” player. He was the best player in the game, then some comparatively middling players passed him up. He was just keeping up with the Joneses, but he kept up better than anyone else was able to because he was one of the all time elites already.

"Everyone else was doing it" doesnt sound elite to me. Thats how criminals justify behavior

 

[Mebert]

Based on the insane amount of PEDs he took. I've never seen a humans head grow that much as an adult and he completely transformed his body and his career. His cheating is the only thing putting him in this particular conversation. Aaron would have hit 1,000 HRs if he did the same

Bonds is basically a Hall of Famer twice. He was good enough before and after steroids. Just good in different ways.

Without steroids he is already in the hall, but probably not innercircle. With them he is innervircle good, but out of the Hall.

 

[calsnowskier]

"Everyone else was doing it" doesnt sound elite to me. Thats how criminals justify behavior

For breaking rules, sure. But for doing something completely legal and ENCOURAGED?

 

[jarntt]

Bonds is basically a Hall of Famer twice. He was good enough before and after steroids. Just good in different ways.

Without steroids he is already in the hall, but probably not innercircle. With them he is innervircle good, but out of the Hall.

The point is that "without" he isn't in this particular poll for the #4 best player ever. Not even close.

 

[calsnowskier]

Bonds is basically a Hall of Famer twice. He was good enough before and after steroids. Just good in different ways.

Without steroids he is already in the hall, but probably not innercircle. With them he is innervircle good, but out of the Hall.

Let’s pretend Bond retired after ‘99 for “reasons”.

3 MVPs, 3 additional top 5 MVP placements. 8 GG, 7 SS. 62.6 WAR7. 103.7 WAR. 445 HRs, 460 SB, 163 OPC+, 1299 RBI, 1455 Runs, 298 IBB(!!!), 1430 BB.

In his final season (‘99), he was injured and still had 34 HRs and an OPS+ of 156 and received MVP votes.

Thats pretty fucking elite, especially considering he was going against roided up ”cheaters”.

 

[calsnowskier]

The point is that "without" he isn't in this particular poll for the #4 best player ever. Not even close.

He played the game that was put in front of him. And he excelled against everyone else who played it.

 

[VikingFan2k2]

Bonds has to win one of these, right?

Not if I have anything to say about it.

 

[calsnowskier]

Not if I have anything to say about it.

Mature stance

 

[VikingFan2k2]

Mature stance

Never claimed it was. I think he should be in the HOF, because several juicers, who were vastly inferior to him, are in. But GOATS don't have the last 5 years of their career chemically enhanced.

 

[calsnowskier]

Never claimed it was. I think he should be in the HOF, because several juicers, who were vastly inferior to him, are in. But GOATS don't have the last 5 years of their career chemically enhanced.

Every human being spends a good portion of their lives “chemically enhanced”.

 

[VikingFan2k2]

Every human being spends a good portion of their lives “chemically enhanced”.

Oh definitely. But I wouldn't call my dad beating cancer because of Chemo a "GOAT". Just a tough SOB that needed help.

 

[broncosmitty]

I’m out. This is stupid at this point.

 

[Robotech]

I'm staying consistent and voting Bonds. I understand people don't like PEDs, but he was already an inner circle Hall of Fame caliber player before PEDs. He had already accumulated over 111 WAR prior to when the PEDs years started in 2001. Bonds would be 2nd all time in WAR if he had not been black balled after the 2007 season, as he was very close to Cy Young and Walter Johnson. Babe Ruth is no. 1 in career WAR with his early career pitching being the difference between him and Bonds. Plus, when so many others were using PEDs, including very many pitchers, Bonds was arguably leveling the playing field. It's really a crime that someone like Bud Selig, who oversaw baseball during that time and who benefited from the performance of the players, is in the Hall of Fame.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Just wondering. How many giants fans do we have voting in these polls??

 

[calsnowskier]

Just wondering. How many giants fans do we have voting in these polls??

4, now that Robo has arrived.

Coming from a Yanks fan, though, that is a pretty funny question.