Top 10 poll: #5 player ever

[Nosferatu]

Jeff Kent over Tris Speaker, Eddie Mathews, Lefty Grove, Warren Spahn, Jackie Robinson, Bob Feller, Sandy Koufax, Wade Boggs, Tony Gwynn, Chipper Jones, George Brett, Steve Carlton. lolzzz

 

[calsnowskier]

it is pretty comical that Kent is on this list... And @calsnowskier claims not to let him being a homer affect this...

Dude, fuck off with this constantly accusing me of being a blind homer. It is really wearing thin. I have argued logically on all my stances. Just because they don’t mesh with your all powerful opinion (universal truth) does not make them nothing but homer fanboy rantings.

There are 35 spots in the pole, and I am rotating lots of brainstorm-level names through the bottom 5 or so names, without a whole lot of thought. Kent is/was a stud 2B. Does he belong in a top 10 discussion? No. But neither do just about any of the names on the list.

 

[Clayton]

If 60% of people are for Aaron then he is pretty much a lock at this point

 

[calsnowskier]

If 60% of people are for Aaron then he is pretty much a lock at this point

I agree, but the “vote for 3” potentially bastardizes that number, so there will still be a runoff.

But I agree. This one looks like a runaway.

 

[LHG]

Here is a very imprecise way of sorting players from greatest to less great. Take each player's OPS+ (for hitters) and ERA+ (for pitchers) and rank them based on how far over their careers were from the average. Here is what you get for Top 25 (percentage points over the average in paranthesis):
1. Babe Ruth, rf (106)
2. Ted Williams, lf (91)
3. Barry Bonds, lf (82)
4. Lou Gehrig, 1b (79)
5. Rogers Hornsby, 2b (75)
6. Mickey Mantle, cf (72)
7. Dan Brouthers, 1b (71)
8. Ty Cobb, cf (68)
10. Jimmie Foxx, 1b (63)
10. Mark McGwire, 1b (63)
12. Hank Greenberg, 1b (59)
12. Stan Musial, 1b (59)
14. Tris Speaker, cf (58)
15. Frank Thomas, 1b (56)
15. Clayton Kershaw, sp (56)
17. Hank Aaron, rf (55)
17. Joe DiMaggio, cf (55)
17. Willie Mays, cf (55)
17. Mel Ott, rf (55)
21. Pedro Martinez, sp (54)
21. Manny Ramirez, lf (54)
21. Frank Robinson, rf (54)
24. Roger Connor, 1b (53)
25. Ed Delahanty, lf (52)

Setting the bar at 2000 IP for pitchers and 7500 PAs for hitters does eliminate the following from consideration:
Mariano Rivera, rp (105)
Oscar Charleston, cf (84)
Turkey Stearnes, cf (77)
Aaron Judge, rf (73)
Mike Trout, cf (73)
Mules Suttles, 1b (72)
Shoeless Joe Jackson, rf (70)
Bill Foster, sp (64)
Pete Browning, of (63)
Dave Orr, 1b (62)
Bullet Rogan, sp (61)
Juan Soto, of (60)
Johnny Mize, 1b (58)
Shohei Ohtani, dh (57)
Dick Allen, 1b (57)
Jacob deGrom, sp (56)
Jud Wilson, 3b (54)
Charlie Keller, lf (52)
Willie Wells, ss (52)

This does not factor in defense so players could well move in these rankings (as an example, I doubt anyone here would rank Willie Mays at 17th, even if they feel 2nd is overrated). So this hardly sets a bar for how players should be ranked. Just adds some info to the discussion.

 

[Clayton]

Here is a very imprecise way of sorting players from greatest to less great. Take each player's OPS+ (for hitters) and ERA+ (for pitchers) and rank them based on how far over their careers were from the average. Here is what you get for Top 25 (percentage points over the average in paranthesis):
1. Babe Ruth, rf (106)
2. Ted Williams, lf (91)
3. Barry Bonds, lf (82)
4. Lou Gehrig, 1b (79)
5. Rogers Hornsby, 2b (75)
6. Mickey Mantle, cf (72)
7. Dan Brouthers, 1b (71)
8. Ty Cobb, cf (68)
10. Jimmie Foxx, 1b (63)
10. Mark McGwire, 1b (63)
12. Hank Greenberg, 1b (59)
12. Stan Musial, 1b (59)
14. Tris Speaker, cf (58)
15. Frank Thomas, 1b (56)
15. Clayton Kershaw, sp (56)
17. Hank Aaron, rf (55)
17. Joe DiMaggio, cf (55)
17. Willie Mays, cf (55)
17. Mel Ott, rf (55)
21. Pedro Martinez, sp (54)
21. Manny Ramirez, lf (54)
21. Frank Robinson, rf (54)
24. Roger Connor, 1b (53)
25. Ed Delahanty, lf (52)

Setting the bar at 2000 IP for pitchers and 7500 PAs for hitters does eliminate the following from consideration:
Mariano Rivera, rp (105)
Oscar Charleston, cf (84)
Turkey Stearnes, cf (77)
Aaron Judge, rf (73)
Mike Trout, cf (73)
Mules Suttles, 1b (72)
Shoeless Joe Jackson, rf (70)
Bill Foster, sp (64)
Pete Browning, of (63)
Dave Orr, 1b (62)
Bullet Rogan, sp (61)
Juan Soto, of (60)
Johnny Mize, 1b (58)
Shohei Ohtani, dh (57)
Dick Allen, 1b (57)
Jacob deGrom, sp (56)
Jud Wilson, 3b (54)
Charlie Keller, lf (52)
Willie Wells, ss (52)

This does not factor in defense so players could well move in these rankings (as an example, I doubt anyone here would rank Willie Mays at 17th, even if they feel 2nd is overrated). So this hardly sets a bar for how players should be ranked. Just adds some info to the discussion.

Guys like McGwire and Frank Thomas probably would look good on a list like that. Imo McGwire is the 6th best player to ever play on the Cardinals pretty firmly if you ignore the cheating but Id imagine most STL fans would just take him off the list.

 

[Nosferatu]

The clown rating was a bit much but hey, I liked Jeff Kent but clearly there are others who should be on the list before him. I didn't realize you were incapable of taking a little ribbing... Now I do.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The clown rating was a bit much but hey, I liked Jeff Kent but clearly there are others who should be on the list before him. I didn't realize you were incapable of taking a little ribbing... Now I do.

your clown was thanks to me... he is right, i have been a little hard on him... mostly joking... but i dont understand why he thinks being a homer is a bad thing.. especially when he clearly is one...

 

[calsnowskier]

your clown was thanks to me... he is right, i have been a little hard on him... mostly joking... but i dont understand why he thinks being a homer is a bad thing.. especially when he clearly is one...

Everyone is biased. But my points have not been blind homerism as you have consistently insinuated.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Everyone is biased. But my points have not been blind homerism as you have consistently insinuated.

i guess i should have given you credit for not listing Gaylord perry... who would have still been better than Kent... LOL....

 

[calsnowskier]

i guess i should have given you credit for not listing Gaylord perry... who would have still been better than Kent... LOL....

If I were a pure shill (like Mariners fans regarding Edgar), I would have stumped Will as a top 5 all timer.

Though I have been stumping for Giants great, Rogers Hornsby, to be getting his soon. But I have been arguing against Giants Great Randy Johnson…

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If I were a pure shill (like Mariners fans regarding Edgar), I would have stumped Will as a top 5 all timer.

Though I have been stumping for Giants great, Rogers Hornsby, to be getting his soon. But I have been arguing against Giants Great Randy Johnson…

but i have heard that buster posey is the best catcher of all time... amirite!!!???

 

[calsnowskier]

but i have heard that buster posey is the best catcher of all time... amirite!!!???

If Pappi is a first ballot HOFer, than an argument for Posey as the best catcher ever belongs on the table.



seriously, though, no one really makes that argument without getting laughed out of the room…

 

[LHG]

but i have heard that buster posey is the best catcher of all time... amirite!!!???

Buster Posey was the best catcher the Giants have ever had but I'm not convinced that he makes the Hall of Fame. Some believe he will get in his first year of eligibility. I wouldn't be surprised if he finally makes it (maybe as early as year 3 of voting) but I also wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't get in at all.

 

[LHG]

Guys like McGwire and Frank Thomas probably would look good on a list like that. Imo McGwire is the 6th best player to ever play on the Cardinals pretty firmly if you ignore the cheating but Id imagine most STL fans would just take him off the list.

I wish there was an easy way to grade out players based on defensive abilities but if some a measurement existed then I guess there would be no need for us all to argue who is the best.

As for McGwire and Thomas, I was surprised that they graded out this good. I do think McGwire should be considered (eventually) if Bonds is considered. But McGwire was a one trick pony. I don't remember his defense being anything special for even a 1st baseman (cannot remember if Thomas was ever above average there either) so I doubt he's really land in a Top 25 list, let alone Top 10.

 

[calsnowskier]

Buster Posey was the best catcher the Giants have ever had but I'm not convinced that he makes the Hall of Fame. Some believe he will get in his first year of eligibility. I wouldn't be surprised if he finally makes it (maybe as early as year 3 of voting) but I also wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't get in at all.

Mauer getting in on his first ballot damn near guarantees Posey should be a first ballot induction.

 

[msgkings322]

Buster Posey was the best catcher the Giants have ever had but I'm not convinced that he makes the Hall of Fame. Some believe he will get in his first year of eligibility. I wouldn't be surprised if he finally makes it (maybe as early as year 3 of voting) but I also wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't get in at all.

He will 100% get in first ballot and this is beyond dispute. Especially after Mauer got in that way.

 

[msgkings322]

Mauer getting in on his first ballot damn near guarantees Posey should be a first ballot induction.

Not damn near. It’s an absolute certainty

 

[Clayton]

I wish there was an easy way to grade out players based on defensive abilities but if some a measurement existed then I guess there would be no need for us all to argue who is the best.

As for McGwire and Thomas, I was surprised that they graded out this good. I do think McGwire should be considered (eventually) if Bonds is considered. But McGwire was a one trick pony. I don't remember his defense being anything special for even a 1st baseman (cannot remember if Thomas was ever above average there either) so I doubt he's really land in a Top 25 list, let alone Top 10.

Actually I was looking over the WAR list and found 2 or 3 more Cardinals I'd take over him. McGwire is probably outside of the top 100

 

[LHG]

Mauer getting in on his first ballot damn near guarantees Posey should be a first ballot induction.

He will 100% get in first ballot and this is beyond dispute. Especially after Mauer got in that way.

Maybe he does, I don't know. Just not as convinced as you two are about this.