Top 10 poll: #5 player ever

[steveringo]

Why next round, but not now? I take you think there is a CLEAR player who deserves this spot, and there is a Cliff after that players is named. I don’t see it that way. Imho, Cobb and Hornsby are leaders at this point, but Aaron, Gehrig and others legit belong in the discussion here.

I'm just a Hank Aaron fan... nothing against Rogers, Ty, and Lou....

I do think Johnson, Young, RJ, Pedro, Rocket, Gibson, etc. can be as important as these hitters..

 

[MilkSpiller22]

What did I say that is untrue. You layer the accusation. Stand behind it and defend it or STFU.

comparing Bonds being the face of steroids with Cobb being the face of racism and whatever... just because they were not liked by the media...

that is wrong...

Bonds is the face of steroids, because

1. He did steroids
2. He broke records while doing steroids
3. he wasnt liked...

the not being liked was a reason, sure. but it was not the main reason, and one of the reasons he wasnt liked was because he became so good using it that he made a mockery of the game... at least thats how they saw it...

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm just a Hank Aaron fan... nothing against Rogers, Ty, and Lou....

I do think Johnson, Young, RJ, Pedro, Rocket, Gibson, etc. can be as important as these hitters..

I posed a question a couple polls back. I was legit asking, not trying to convince anyone of this or that…

What is more important? Going 8 IP giving up 3 ERs or hitting 2 HRs in a game?

 

[calsnowskier]

comparing Bonds being the face of steroids with Cobb being the face of racism and whatever... just because they were not liked by the media...

that is wrong...

Bonds is the face of steroids, because

1. He did steroids
2. He broke records while doing steroids
3. he wasnt liked...

the not being liked was a reason, sure. but it was not the main reason, and one of the reasons he wasnt liked was because he became so good using it that he made a mockery of the game... at least thats how they saw it...

Bolded is the only thing that matters.

Aaron used greenies so he could play through pain and have better attention during his ABs.

Aaron used the best technology available at the time to chemically improve himself. And he is loved.

Bonds used the best technology available at the time to chemically improve himself. And he is hated.

Both players broke the most loved record in the game. But one was “a swell guy” and lived in a sports era that did not reside in the 24 hour news environment while the other lived in an era where air time needed to be filled 24 hours a day.

McGwire and Sosa (and to a lessor extant, but adding to the narrative, Maddux and Glavine) are more responsible for the all-in on PED usage by the game and the writers.

Not to say Mac or Sosa broke that particular rule, either. Because “that particular rule” didn’t even exist.

 

[msgkings322]

I am not certain where my votes will lie in this one yet. I am leaning Hornsby and Cobb, but I am not certain who gets my 3rd nom. Aaron? Henderson? Robinson? Schmidt? Bench?

Gehrig had the durability (until he didn’t, obviously), but 1B is a tough spot for me to vote this high. Musial doesn’t belong here YET, imho. Still too early for a pitcher. Only 2 SSs belong in the discussion, but I am hesitant to give in on ARod, and Ripken just doesn’t belong this high.

Aaron kind of stands out there to me

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Bolded is the only thing that matters.

Aaron used greenies so he could play through pain and have better attention during his ABs.

Aaron used the best technology available at the time to chemically improve himself. And he is loved.

Bonds used the best technology available at the time to chemically improve himself. And he is hated.

Both players broke the most loved record in the game. But one was “a swell guy” and lived in a sports era that did not reside in the 24 hour news environment while the other lived in an era where air time needed to be filled 24 hours a day.

McGwire and Sosa (and to a lessor extant, but adding to the narrative, Maddux and Glavine) are more responsible for the all-in on PED usage by the game and the writers.

Not to say Mac or Sosa broke that particular rule, either. Because “that particular rule” didn’t even exist.

but i didnt say he broke the rule... i said he is the face of steroids... the face of the era of baseball... his innocence is irrelevant...

you also have to understand most people's issue with steroids is not AFTER it became illegal in baseball... it is only important whether you did it or not..

especially under your opinion that everyone did it, then are we assuming that once it became illegal in baseball people who were doing it just stopped doing it??

 

[msgkings322]

Ohtani is a unicorn, no doubt. But if he were to retire today, for reasons that don’t influence his reputation, would he belong this high? I get the sense he is getting credit for his potential rather than what he has actually done.

That but also, the unicorn thing matters. It's like he's Roy Hobbs...he's the greatest some of us have ever seen, even if he gets hit by a bus tomorrow we saw something great and unique. It's not logically consistent but this is ultimately about how we view the game and its players.

 

[calsnowskier]

but i didnt say he broke the rule... i said he is the face of steroids... the face of the era of baseball... his innocence is irrelevant...

you also have to understand most people's issue with steroids is not AFTER it became illegal in baseball... it is only important whether you did it or not..

especially under your opinion that everyone did it, then are we assuming that once it became illegal in baseball people who were doing it just stopped doing it??

So you are arguing the fact that he is CONSIDERED the face of PEDs is why he should be discounted. How is that different from Cobb and him being considered the face of racist baseball?

Both of those monickers are thanks to spiteful writers who created a narrative because of personal feelings. ARod continued using after rules were implemented against their use (proven fact). There is no evidence that Bonds did the same.

buying the “Aaron did it clean” and the “Bonds did it dirty” is just parroting the narrative-driven opinions of writers rather than looking at the known facts and deciding accordingly.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So you are arguing the fact that he is CONSIDERED the face of PEDs is why he should be discounted. How is that different from Cobb and him being considered the face of racist baseball?

Both of those monickers are thanks to spiteful writers who created a narrative because of personal feelings. ARod continued using after rules were implemented against their use (proven fact). There is no evidence that Bonds did the same.

buying the “Aaron did it clean” and the “Bonds did it dirty” is just parroting the narrative-driven opinions of writers rather than looking at the known facts and deciding accordingly.

first off, who is buying that narrative... i know i wasnt...

also, i have been very clear that i am pro-steroid users for these lists, and to make it to the HOF... i dont even want an asterisk... just have the period explained, not the players...



I just think your equivalence is off majorly... not just about specific drugs...

because saying using greenies have a similar affect to the game just feels off...

and your ignoring of Bonds for his part in the steroid ERA just feels very off....

 

[MilkSpiller22]

also... according to most things i have read, Steroids became illegal in baseball in 1991... there was just no testing...

seems that the first test was in 2001 and that was the minor leagues...

 

[msgkings322]

Guys, remember, this is more of a nomination stage. Please vote for 3 players. It seams most voters are only checking 1 player.

@Shanemansj13 @Pure Steel @packerzrule @femurov @Diamondeye @navamind @UK Cowboy

Doctor heal thyself...I only see one vote from you so far...

Edit: make that two

 

[packerzrule]

It should have been a blowout favoring Bonds!!!

 

[calsnowskier]

Doctor heal thyself...I only see one vote from you so far...

Edit: make that two

And i stated I am still deciding on my third.

reading comprehension and that rigmarole…

 

[calsnowskier]

first off, who is buying that narrative... i know i wasnt...

also, i have been very clear that i am pro-steroid users for these lists, and to make it to the HOF... i dont even want an asterisk... just have the period explained, not the players...



I just think your equivalence is off majorly... not just about specific drugs...

because saying using greenies have a similar affect to the game just feels off...

and your ignoring of Bonds for his part in the steroid ERA just feels very off....

Faye Vincent published a memo in ‘91 stating his desire for steroids to be outlawed. But a desire =/= a rule.

Vincent himself stated in in the ‘00s (I am not certain EXACTLY when he stated this) that this memo should not be interpreted as a rule and not be used in a prosecution of Bonds.

 

[LHG]

Of course it doesn’t have any legitimacy. It is just a bunch of drunk morons on the internet chatting baseball.

Hey now . . . I'm not drunk. I have no excuse.

 

[LHG]

He is a really tough one. He ACTUALLY cheated. I honestly don’t know how to treat him. But I think I agree that he can’t be ignored forever.

Then how do you handle Pete Rose? From what I gathered, he was a self centered jerk. And he broke baseball's cardinal rule about gambling (a nerve that goes deep into the early days of baseball, that threatened the legitimacy of the game). But his numbers still stand. Do we rank him as well?

 

[calsnowskier]

Then how do you handle Pete Rose? From what I gathered, he was a self centered jerk. And he broke baseball's cardinal rule about gambling (a nerve that goes deep into the early days of baseball, that threatened the legitimacy of the game). But his numbers still stand. Do we rank him as well?

I don’t have a prob with him, personally. Partially because I dont really feel his name would up in this discussion for quite a while, but also because his “cheating” didn’t likely effect his on-field play.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Then how do you handle Pete Rose? From what I gathered, he was a self centered jerk. And he broke baseball's cardinal rule about gambling (a nerve that goes deep into the early days of baseball, that threatened the legitimacy of the game). But his numbers still stand. Do we rank him as well?

he wasnt going to be top 10 anyway... not sure if he is even top 20...

but his cheating also didnt affect his stats....

 

[LHG]

I don’t have a prob with him, personally. Partially because I dont really feel his name would up in this discussion for quite a while, but also because his “cheating” didn’t likely effect his on-field play.

he wasnt going to be top 10 anyway... not sure if he is even top 20...

but his cheating also didnt affect his stats....

If Jeff Kent is one of the rotating names in the back end of these polls, I'd like to nominate Pete Rose, just to see how that is handled in the discussions.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If Jeff Kent is one of the rotating names in the back end of these polls, I'd like to nominate Pete Rose, just to see how that is handled in the discussions.

it is pretty comical that Kent is on this list... And @calsnowskier claims not to let him being a homer affect this...