Top 10 Poll: #2 Player Ever

[Diamondeye]

I probably have mays as my third best because of all the EXTRA things. But I just don’t see how bonds is not the best or second best player of all time. Other than the steroids.

So, you honestly believe Bonds would have had his best, most dominate seasons in his late 30's without steroids? I sure as hell don't.

If you don't either, but just don't care, that's fine, but I don't understand the ridicule toward people who prefer players who had equal or better true primes than Bonds and did not inflate both themselves and their stats in the twilight of their careers.

If Bonds doesn't start juicing, he very likely has a similar age 35+ career that Mays had.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So, you honestly believe Bonds would have had his best, most dominate seasons in his late 30's without steroids? I sure as hell don't.

If you don't either, but just don't care, that's fine, but I don't understand the ridicule toward people who prefer players who had equal or better true primes than Bonds and did not inflate both themselves and their stats in the twilight of their careers.

If Bonds doesn't start juicing, he very likely has a similar age 35+ career that Mays had.

It doesn’t matter what I think would have happened. But no, I don’t think he would have been as dominant without steroids.

From the beginning I said that the question for who is the second best player is all about whether you pick the obvious Barry Bonds or want to discredit him for steroids.

That is all this is about. If you want to discredit him for cheating then he should not even be in your top 10. If he is in your top 10, then you are either a hypocrite or he is ranked first or second. It’s that simple.

 

[Diamondeye]

That is all this is about. If you want to discredit him for cheating then he should not even be in your top 10. If he is in your top 10, then you are either a hypocrite or he is ranked first or second. It’s that simple.

I disagree with this in that I feel pre-steroids Barry Bonds of the 1990s was probably a top 10 all-time player.

He should have won four straight MVPs at the beginning of that decade, between his time with the Pirates and Giants, but was robbed in n 1991.

That's the player I choose to recognize and rank, not the giant asterisk that was the late 30s version of Barry Bonds

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I disagree with this in that I feel pre-steroids Barry Bonds of the 1990s was probably a top 10 all-time player.

He should have won four straight MVPs at the beginning of that decade, between his time with the Pirates and Giants, but was robbed in n 1991.

That's the player I choose to recognize and rank, not the giant asterisk that was the late 30s version of Barry Bonds

arguably top 10.... but it would be a serious debate... i dont think he would have made my top 10, pretty sure he wouldnt have...

 

[PolarVortex]

So, you honestly believe Bonds would have had his best, most dominate seasons in his late 30's without steroids? I sure as hell don't.

If you don't either, but just don't care, that's fine, but I don't understand the ridicule toward people who prefer players who had equal or better true primes than Bonds and did not inflate both themselves and their stats in the twilight of their careers.

If Bonds doesn't start juicing, he very likely has a similar age 35+ career that Mays had.

So then you also believe Jeter juiced, Papi juiced, Edgar Martinez juiced, Randy Johnson Juiced, Steve Carlton Juuiced, Justin Verlander is juicing, Ted Williams, CY Young, Ty Cobb, Nolan Ryan, Hank Aaron, Roger Clemens, Mo Rivera, Stan Musial, Tris Speaker, Paul Moliter, Tony Gwynn, and yes, Baabe Ruth too.

Either you think all these other guys who had great success beyond the age 35 also juiced, even though most of them played before sophisticated steroids were available
or
as a Pirate fan, you are just bitter that Bonds left Pittsburgh because Pirate ownership was too cheap to pay him market value.

 

[Diamondeye]

Either you think all these other guys who had great success beyond the age 35 also juiced, even though most of them played before sophisticated steroids were available

There's having success at that age, and there's having one of the most dominant four year stretches a player has ever had, as Bonds did in the early 2000s. Of the players you mentioned, Randy Johnson is probably the only one comparable in that regard.

I don't doubt Bonds could have still had "great success" late in his career, but the historic level of success he had at that point was clearly inflated by juicing and distorted his place in the history of the game.

FTR, I think Bonds should still be in the HoF and is probably in my all-time top 10, but I'm not going to rate him ahead of several other all-time greats who didn't have the benefit of steroids to either prolong their careers and/or boost their numbers.

as a Pirate fan, you are just bitter that Bonds left Pittsburgh because Pirate ownership was too cheap to pay him market value.

The Pirates could not afford to out bid anyone for Bonds even if they wanted to. The same with Bobby Bonilla.

 

[calsnowskier]

There's having success at that age, and there's having one of the most dominant four year stretches a player has ever had, as Bonds did in the early 2000s. Of the players you mentioned, Randy Johnson is probably the only one comparable in that regard.

I don't doubt Bonds could have still had "great success" late in his career, but the historic level of success he had at that point was clearly inflated by juicing and distorted his place in the history of the game.

FTR, I think Bonds should still be in the HoF and is probably in my all-time top 10, but I'm not going to rate him ahead of several other all-time greats who didn't have the benefit of steroids to either prolong their careers and/or boost their numbers.



The Pirates could not afford to out bid anyone for Bonds even if they wanted to. The same with Bobby Bonilla.

This is a fair take.

But what is your line for being great? Bonds never broke a baseball rule. Why punish a guy for doing something that was totally allowed by the league?

 

[calsnowskier]

FYI

This poll will close at approx 7:30 AM PST on Friday.

Polls can’t be edited after posting and I hit [enter] after populating the options, which unintentionally posted the poll before I was able to set the time frame or vote viewing options.

As it stands now, there will be a runoff between Mays and Bonds.

Further, moving forward, I will incorporate the idea of allowing 3 votes per user in the initial general portion of the poll before going into the runoffs. This requires a runoff at every step, but I don’t think that can be avoided anyway.

 

[Diamondeye]

This is a fair take.

But what is your line for being great? Bonds never broke a baseball rule. Why punish a guy for doing something that was totally allowed by the league?

I'm not sure "punishment" is the right word, as Bonds is still an all-time in my eyes and the best of his era when steroids were prevalent , but in this exercise of comparing and ranking the best of the best, the statistical distortions created by steroids are a factor for me.

I respect that they aren't much of a factor for others and understand the debate, but Bonds is probably not in Ruth's ballpark statistically without juicing.

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm not sure "punishment" is the right word, as Bonds is still an all-time in my eyes and the best of his era when steroids were prevalent , but in this exercise of comparing and ranking the best of the best, the statistical distortions created by steroids are a factor for me.

I respect that they aren't much of a factor for others and understand the debate, but Bonds is probably not in Ruth's ballpark statistically without juicing.

Couldn’t the argument be made that Ruth was head and shoulders statistically in an era where few players were able to dedicate their entire life to baseball financially, thus he was playing against the equivalent of AA talant? Meanwhile, Bonds was head and shoulders above other players who were able to use all the greatest technology to advance their game AND a large portion of his contemporaries were using PEDs as well.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Couldn’t the argument be made that Ruth was head and shoulders statistically in an era where few players were able to dedicate their entire life to baseball financially, thus he was playing against the equivalent of AA talant? Meanwhile, Bonds was head and shoulders above other players who were able to use all the greatest technology to advance their game AND a large portion of his contemporaries were using PEDs as well.

Not to mention Ruth was paid as a full timer. So he was one of the only players that didn’t have another job.

 

[Diamondeye]

Couldn’t the argument be made that Ruth was head and shoulders statistically in an era where few players were able to dedicate their entire life to baseball financially, thus he was playing against the equivalent of AA talant? Meanwhile, Bonds was head and shoulders above other players who were able to use all the greatest technology to advance their game AND a large portion of his contemporaries were using PEDs as well.

It's a legit argument, but I think a counter to that would be what would the likes of Ruth, Mays, Ted Williams, Hank Aaron or Stan Musial have done had they been on steroids? There's also the question of the "pre-homerun" era greats like Cobb, Speaker and Honus Wagner.

As I said, we're comparing the best of the best here.

 

[calsnowskier]

It's a legit argument, but I think a counter to that would be what would the likes of Ruth, Mays, Ted Williams, Hank Aaron or Stan Musial have done had they been on steroids? There's also the question of the "pre-homerun" era greats like Cobb, Speaker and Honus Wagner.

As I said, we're comparing the best of the best here.

Also, guys like Mays probably would not have even played baseball if he were a modern player. He may have gone the football route instead. Baseball doesn’t attract the uber-athletes anymore, for the most part.

 

[Cedrique]

So then you also believe Jeter juiced, Papi juiced, Edgar Martinez juiced, Randy Johnson Juiced, Steve Carlton Juuiced, Justin Verlander is juicing, Ted Williams, CY Young, Ty Cobb, Nolan Ryan, Hank Aaron, Roger Clemens, Mo Rivera, Stan Musial, Tris Speaker, Paul Moliter, Tony Gwynn, and yes, Baabe Ruth too.

Either you think all these other guys who had great success beyond the age 35 also juiced, even though most of them played before sophisticated steroids were available
or
as a Pirate fan, you are just bitter that Bonds left Pittsburgh because Pirate ownership was too cheap to pay him market value.

This is just a completely false statement. None of those players had their best 4 year stretch between ages 36-39. Did you even look at the stats of some of those players?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Also, guys like Mays probably would not have even played baseball if he were a modern player. He may have gone the football route instead. Baseball doesn’t attract the uber-athletes anymore, for the most part.

Baseball has certainly become the third or 4th(behind soccer) choice for the athletic american... and it is only going to get worse now college football and basketball players making so much money...

 

[calsnowskier]

Baseball has certainly become the third or 4th(behind soccer) choice for the athletic american...

The carrot doesn’t materialize until about the age of 27 or 28 in baseball. In basketball, it is there at 19. Footbal is by 22 or 23. Soccer is a LONG game.

Also, it is harder to do a pickup game of baseball. You can’t really do it during recess because not many kids will get an AB. You can’t really do it on the weekends because you need too many players. Football is great for recess because you really only need 5 kids and you can get 4 or 6 possessions. Basketball can be done with 2 kids.

 

[PolarVortex]

There's having success at that age, and there's having one of the most dominant four year stretches a player has ever had, as Bonds did in the early 2000s. Of the players you mentioned, Randy Johnson is probably the only one comparable in that regard.

I don't doubt Bonds could have still had "great success" late in his career, but the historic level of success he had at that point was clearly inflated by juicing and distorted his place in the history of the game.

FTR, I think Bonds should still be in the HoF and is probably in my all-time top 10, but I'm not going to rate him ahead of several other all-time greats who didn't have the benefit of steroids to either prolong their careers and/or boost their numbers.

So it's okay that nearly ll the great players from the 50s and 60s took amphetamines but it's not okay that the players of the 90s and oughts took steriods? Seems kinda biased. Mays admitted himself that he used amphetamines - non-prescribed amphetamines.

The Pirates could not afford to out bid anyone for Bonds even if they wanted to. The same with Bobby Bonilla.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The carrot doesn’t materialize until about the age of 27 or 28 in baseball. In basketball, it is there at 19. Footbal is by 22 or 23. Soccer is a LONG game.

Also, it is harder to do a pickup game of baseball. You can’t really do it during recess because not many kids will get an AB. You can’t really do it on the weekends because you need too many players. Football is great for recess because you really only need 5 kids and you can get 4 or 6 possessions. Basketball can be done with 2 kids.

ive said this for a while baseball has to fix the minor leagues... mostly they have to create a better path from draft to majors...

my solution is to shrink the minor leagues drastically... and have better rules to protect top prospects...

 

[calsnowskier]

ive said this for a while baseball has to fix the minor leagues... mostly they have to create a better path from draft to majors...

my solution is to shrink the minor leagues drastically... and have better rules to protect top prospects...

I see the argument, but the game at the top levels is soooo different from the lower levels, there is a LOT of failure along the way. The teams already invest a lot into developing the players, increasing the cost to develop would really hurt the game, I think. Having a late carrot in baseball is required because it is an older-man’s game. You can’t pay guys before they make themselves worthwhile. That will break the game.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The carrot doesn’t materialize until about the age of 27 or 28 in baseball. In basketball, it is there at 19. Footbal is by 22 or 23. Soccer is a LONG game.

Also, it is harder to do a pickup game of baseball. You can’t really do it during recess because not many kids will get an AB. You can’t really do it on the weekends because you need too many players. Football is great for recess because you really only need 5 kids and you can get 4 or 6 possessions. Basketball can be done with 2 kids.

baseball can be 2 kids too.... stickball and wiffle ball are great baseball related games...

if you are good at those you would be more willing to play real baseball...