Top 10 poll: #16 player ever

[calsnowskier]

1) Babe Ruth (defeated Willie Mays 23-9)
2) Willie Mays (defeated Barry Bonds 26-11)
3) Ted Williams (defeated Barry Bonds 18-17)
4) Barry Bonds (defeated Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb 20-11-8)
5) Hank Aaron (defeated Ty Cobb 17-16)
6) Ty Cobb (defeated Lou Gehrig 24-9)
7) Lou Gehrig (defeated Walter Johnson 19-10)
8) Mickey Mantle (defeated Walter Johnson 17-12)
9) Walter Johnson (defeated Stan Musial and Rogers Hornsby 18-7-3)
10) Stan Musial (defeated Rogers Hornsby 15-10)
11) Rogers Hornsby (defeated H. Wagner, R. Henderson, M. Schmidt and R. Clemens 15-4-3-2-1)
12) Honus Wagner (defeated Roger Clemens 19-8)
13) Mike Schmidt (defeated Roger Clemens 16-12)
14) Rickey Henderson (defeated Roger Clemens 17-13)
15) Roger Clemens (defeated Ken Griffey Jr 16-14)

Who is the #16 player ever? This poll will close Friday AM.

VOTE FOR 3!!

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[calsnowskier]

Tris Speaker (CF) 1907 - 1928

1 MVP, 1 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 1 additional season receiving MVP votes (MVP only given in 4 years of his career)

135.0, 62.1

Bold: RBI 1, 2B 8, HR 1, OPS 1, TB 1, all time 2B

OPS+ buckets

180 - 3
160 - 6
140 - 6
120 - 2

Shohei Ohtani (DH) 2018 - current

3 MVP, 1 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, ROY, 3 ASG

28.7, 28.7

Bold: R 1, 3B 1, HR 2, RBI 1, OPS 2, TB 2

OPS+ buckets

180 - 2
160 - 0
140 - 3
120 - 1

Joe DiMaggio (CF) 1936 - 1951 (3 years lost to WWII)

3 MVP, 3 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 2 additional seasons with MVP votes, 13 ASG (AS every year of career)

79.1, 52.1

Bold: R 1, 3B 1, HR 2, RBI 2, TB 3

OPS+ buckets

180 - 2
160 - 3
140 - 4
120 - 2

Yogi Berra (C) 1946 - 1965

3 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 8 additional seasons with MVP votes, 15 ASG (3 years with 2 ASG)

59.5, 38.2

Bold: NA

OPS+ buckets

180 - 0
160 - 0
140 - 2
120 - 7

Jimmie Foxx (1B) 1925 - 1942

3 MVP, 1 top 5 MVP, 3 top 10 MVP, 4 additional seasons with MVP votes, 9 ASG (ASG started in his age 25 season - he already had 4 MVP vote seasons at that time)

92.2, 58.1

Bold: R 1, HR 4, RBI 3, BB 2, OPS 5, TB 3

OPS+ buckets

200 - 2
180 - 4
160 - 2
140 - 4
120 - 2

Albert Pujols (1B) 2001 - 2022

3 MVP, 7 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 2 additional seasons with MVP votes, 11 ASG, ROY, 6 SS, 2 GG

101.5, 59.8

Bold: R 5, HR 2, RBI 1, OPS 3, TB 4, 2B 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 3
160 - 4
140 - 5
120 - 2

 

[Clayton]

Speaker, DiMaggio, and Pujols

If other people start voting Frank Robinson I will, too

 

[calsnowskier]

This is a tough one. There isn’t a CLEAR winner. Heck, there isn’t a CLEAR 3 to nominate. I have thrown a nom at Maddux, but that is very far from locked. I may very well nom 3 totally different players.

Johnson
Martinez
Young
Maddux
Speaker
Foxx
Pujols
Bench
Robinson
…

 

[calsnowskier]

Speaker, DiMaggio, and Pujols

If other people start voting Frank Robinson I will, too

I may. It is near criminal that he isn’t getting ANY love.

 

[LHG]

Updated for #14 (overrated!):
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1948-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)

1876-1896 - 0
1897-1904 - 1
1905-1906 - 2
1907-1913 - 3
1914 - 4
1915-1917 - 5
1918-1922 - 4
1923-1927 - 5
1928 - 4
1929-1935 - 3
1936-1937 - 2
1938 - 1
1939 - 2
1940 - 1
1941-1947 - 2
1948-1950 - 3
1951-1953 - 4
1954-1960 - 5
1961-1963 - 4
1964-1968 - 3
1969-1971 - 2
1972-1973 - 3
1974-1976 - 2
1977-1978 - 1
1979-1985 - 2
1986-1989 - 3
1990-2003 - 2
2004-2007 - 1
2007-2024 - 0

Updated for #15 (about time!):
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1948-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)
15) Roger Clemens (1984-2007)

1876-1896 - 0
1897-1904 - 1
1905-1906 - 2
1907-1913 - 3
1914 - 4
1915-1917 - 5
1918-1922 - 4
1923-1927 - 5
1928 - 4
1929-1935 - 3
1936-1937 - 2
1938 - 1
1939 - 2
1940 - 1
1941-1947 - 2
1948-1950 - 3
1951-1953 - 4
1954-1960 - 5
1961-1963 - 4
1964-1968 - 3
1969-1971 - 2
1972-1973 - 3
1974-1976 - 2
1977-1978 - 1
1979-1983 - 2
1984-1985 - 3
1986-1989 - 4
1990-2003 - 3
2004-2007 - 2
2007-2024 - 0

 

[steveringo]

I value pitching more than anything else...

I took RJ & Pedro and gave my third to XX (who I'd slot ahead of Speaker)...

 

[steveringo]

 

[calsnowskier]

Frank Robinson (RF) 1956 - 1976

2 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 5 additional seasons with MVP votes, 12 (+2) ASG, ROY, 6 SS, 2 GG

107.2, 52.9

Bold: R 3, HR 1, RBI 1, OPS 4, TB 1, 2B 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 2
160 - 5
140 - 8
120 - 3

 

[MilkSpiller22]

This is a tough one. There isn’t a CLEAR winner. Heck, there isn’t a CLEAR 3 to nominate. I have thrown a nom at Maddux, but that is very far from locked. I may very well nom 3 totally different players.

Johnson
Martinez
Young
Maddux
Speaker
Foxx
Pujols
Bench
Robinson
…

i kind of think we need a side step, just to rank the next 5 pitchers... without it, i fear a very weird 2nd runoff again...

 

[calsnowskier]

View attachment 388828

?? (Collins?), Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx

???

 

[MilkSpiller22]

?? (Collins?), Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx

???

al simmons..

Looked it up... the face is too similar... so it has to be...

 

[Clayton]

Whats the argument for Foxx over Pujols? I already gave my RBat+ comparison where Pujols wins in all but 2 years when comparing their whole career.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Whats the argument for Foxx over Pujols? I already gave my RBat+ comparison where Pujols wins in all but 2 years when comparing their whole career.

i do have pujols over Foxx... but i can see the argument... you can easily say Foxx at his best was better than Pujols at his best...

 

[calsnowskier]

Whats the argument for Foxx over Pujols? I already gave my RBat+ comparison where Pujols wins in all but 2 years when comparing their whole career.

Honestly, their numbers are very close. The edge probably goes to Pujols, but I think they are close enough to consider a near push. Especially given that Pujols played in the DH era so he was able to extend his bat.

Pujols has the IMAGE of always playing in Bonds’ shadow, but in reality, they only overlapped for 6 years. Foxx played in Ruth‘s shadow for 10 seasons and he overlapped with Gehrig for 14 years and Cob for 3 years.

 

[Clayton]

Pujols has the IMAGE of always playing in Bonds’ shadow,

I never had that image. I think the image problem is that he wasn't that good in the AL post-shift.

As far as Foxx is concerned, I do see the argument for just seeing that he had the best season and the rest of the numbers are close enough. Its kinda Maddux vs Johnson to a certain degree. Johnson has more good to great years with Maddux the better peak.

 

[LHG]

Whats the argument for Foxx over Pujols? I already gave my RBat+ comparison where Pujols wins in all but 2 years when comparing their whole career.

I think the argument can be made based on top OPS+ seasons. Foxx has a few more very elite years than Pujols. However, Pujols has a higher career WAR (101.4 vs 92.2 but in two more seasons) and higher WAR7 (61.7 vs 57.9). I think the two are almost a tie.

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129
Jimmie Foxx	3​	0​	4​	1​	1​	2​	2​	2​	1​
Albert Pujols	0​	1​	2​	3​	1​	4​	1​	1​	1​

 

[Clayton]

I think the argument can be made based on top OPS+ seasons. Foxx has a few more very elite years than Pujols. However, Pujols has a higher career WAR (101.4 vs 92.2 but in two more seasons) and higher WAR7 (61.7 vs 57.9). I think the two are almost a tie.

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129
Jimmie Foxx	3​	0​	4​	1​	1​	2​	2​	2​	1​
Albert Pujols	0​	1​	2​	3​	1​	4​	1​	1​	1​

I guess which is the better stat: OPS+ or RBAT+?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I guess which is the better stat: OPS+ or RBAT+?

RBAT+ takes more things into account as it is basically the oWAR without position....

but for pure hitting OPS+, with these 2 players, is better... now... both have enough problems that in a real analysis, you cant ONLY bring up that one stat as king...

both good starting stats...

but both players also played in an offensive boom era... but because booms only really affect the better players, the average player or the replacement player might not be an accurate representative of what it is trying to be...

also yo may want to acknowledge that Foxx played pre expansion, so there was only 8 teams in the AL...

Pujols played with 15 teams in the NL, and AL...

 

[calsnowskier]

RBAT+ takes more things into account as it is basically the oWAR without position....

but for pure hitting OPS+, with these 2 players, is better... now... both have enough problems that in a real analysis, you cant ONLY bring up that one stat as king...

both good starting stats...

but both players also played in an offensive boom era... but because booms only really affect the better players, the average player or the replacement player might not be an accurate representative of what it is trying to be...

also yo may want to acknowledge that Foxx played pre expansion, so there was only 8 teams in the AL...

Pujols played with 15 teams in the NL, and AL...

With a healthy representation of Latin and Asian players that the pre-expansion era didn’t have. Blacks have pretty much abandoned baseball at this point, so that is a virtual wash.