POLL Top 10 poll: #15 player ever

[MilkSpiller22]

I started using this tool that I discovered on Baseball Reference (completely on my own by the way-I just figured the shit out) where you can block out the bulk of a player's career and look at their stats for that, while excluding some years at the beginning or end where they may have been learning the trade or just playing for the love of the game. I'm finding for a lot of guys, I'm looking at about 11 seasons. Of course the elite guys like Aaron, Bonds, Mays, Ruth have a few seasons beyond that that are way above average. But when you compare a guy with 10-11 seasons being the meat of his career, Mike Trout matches up very well against all of them, even just including all his partial seasons. (he has declined some, but not that much yet). For example, even with the injury shortened seasons and everything, his WAR per 162 is higher than virtually anyone outside of Babe Ruth or someone. And if you compare him to someone like Joe Dimaggio (Throwing out Joe's first and last season) Trout blows it away. If you consider Dimaggio's whole career it doesn't change too much but it gives Dimaggio about 1000 more plate appearances. Trout has him beat handily in WAR. (Of course there are still other things to consider, like Dimaggio's postseason appearances)

again trout will age better for a list like this,.. but for now most of us are sour on him because he has had so much trouble staying healthy, and because he chooses to play for a mediocre team... and has made it clear he doesn't care about winning... cares more about loyalty to the angels...

playing only 3 games in the postseason is as much on him as it is on the angels sucking...

but once he is retired, we will base him more on his stats and more on his prime... and loyalty is actually seen as a positive...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Cal gives Bonds and Clemens a pass for playing when Steroids was still technically legal(although frowned upon)...

but I don't know what is worse getting caught and getting punished and doing your time.... or being the reason why it became illegal... Bonds was the biggest reason!!

 

[calsnowskier]

(completely on my own by the way-I just figured the shit out)

Look at the big brain on Cedrique!

 

[calsnowskier]

I started using this tool that I discovered on Baseball Reference (completely on my own by the way-I just figured the shit out) where you can block out the bulk of a player's career and look at their stats for that, while excluding some years at the beginning or end where they may have been learning the trade or just playing for the love of the game. I'm finding for a lot of guys, I'm looking at about 11 seasons. Of course the elite guys like Aaron, Bonds, Mays, Ruth have a few seasons beyond that that are way above average. But when you compare a guy with 10-11 seasons being the meat of his career, Mike Trout matches up very well against all of them, even just including all his partial seasons. (he has declined some, but not that much yet). For example, even with the injury shortened seasons and everything, his WAR per 162 is higher than virtually anyone outside of Babe Ruth or someone. And if you compare him to someone like Joe Dimaggio (Throwing out Joe's first and last season) Trout blows it away. If you consider Dimaggio's whole career it doesn't change too much but it gives Dimaggio about 1000 more plate appearances. Trout has him beat handily in WAR. (Of course there are still other things to consider, like Dimaggio's postseason appearances)

WAR162 is also pretty worthless, imho. It excuses brittle ass bitches.

 

[calsnowskier]

again trout will age better for a list like this,.. but for now most of us are sour on him because he has had so much trouble staying healthy, and because he chooses to play for a mediocre team... and has made it clear he doesn't care about winning... cares more about loyalty to the angels...

playing only 3 games in the postseason is as much on him as it is on the angels sucking...

but once he is retired, we will base him more on his stats and more on his prime... and loyalty is actually seen as a positive...

I agree with this. And while I am guilty of it just as much as everyone else, I think it is unfair for us to “ding” him for his lack of “moving to a winner”. We ding other players for being a merc and moving to the powerhouse team. But when a great does the opposite, we ding that too? That makes no sense.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

He is the only one left from the big #11 vote.

But it seems there are more people who dislike him personally ON TOP OF the stink. This may be the situation that Milk was concerned about with Bonds. That there is enough of an ABRC block that he will never get voted.

yea, I am convinced that if the 2nd runoff was Randy Johnson vs Henderson, Johnson Would have won...

Henderson at 14, is probably way to early... but that's what we get in a popular vote doing it like we are doing it... I don't think any of us agree with how this vote has been going...

 

[calsnowskier]

Cal gives Bonds and Clemens a pass for playing when Steroids was still technically legal(although frowned upon)...

but I don't know what is worse getting caught and getting punished and doing your time.... or being the reason why it became illegal... Bonds was the biggest reason!!

B&C did what everyone else was doing. It was legal. And the media and league offices promoted it and profited from it. Just because they were better than everyone else does not make them guilty while everyone else was innocent.

Once the rules changed, there is no evidence (or even allegations that I am aware of) that either continued using. Cano, Ramirez, ARod and others all kept going, playing a sport that was no longer baseball.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I agree with this. And while I am guilty of it just as much as everyone else, I think it is unfair for us to “ding” him for his lack of “moving to a winner”. We ding other players for being a merc and moving to the powerhouse team. But when a great does the opposite, we ding that too? That makes no sense.

hell remember when Greinke even called for anxiety and that's why he wanted to pitch for KC...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

B&C did what everyone else was doing. It was legal. And the media and league offices promoted it and profited from it. Just because they were better than everyone else does not make them guilty while everyone else was innocent.

Once the rules changed, there is no evidence (or even allegations that I am aware of) that either continued using. Cano, Ramirez, ARod and others all kept going, playing a sport that was no longer baseball.

yes.. and they all were penalized for it... whether missing half a season or a full season or both... is doing your time, repentance?? does that make it just as legal when they were not caught??

 

[calsnowskier]

yea, I am convinced that if the 2nd runoff was Randy Johnson vs Henderson, Johnson Would have won...

Henderson at 14, is probably way to early... but that's what we get in a popular vote doing it like we are doing it... I don't think any of us agree with how this vote has been going...

But it still represents us as a whole. We all have varying opinions of how the list should be. I created a thread specifically for that which was completely ignored, btw.

I don’t agree with many of the votes. But I accept every single one. It represents us AS A WHOLE, but none of us INDIVIDUALLY.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I agree with this. And while I am guilty of it just as much as everyone else, I think it is unfair for us to “ding” him for his lack of “moving to a winner”. We ding other players for being a merc and moving to the powerhouse team. But when a great does the opposite, we ding that too? That makes no sense.

I don't think we really ding players for being mercs... especially if they have strong postseasons...

 

[calsnowskier]

yes.. and they all were penalized for it... whether missing half a season or a full season or both... is doing your time, repentance?? does that make it just as legal when they were not caught??

Not when we are judging how they played baseball. They were determined, by baseball, to have not played baseball.

 

[calsnowskier]

I don't think we really ding players for being mercs... especially if they have strong postseasons...

I have KD on the line for you…

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I have KD on the line for you…

we talking basketball now?? Durant, is still seen to be one of the best players of all time... we might not like the fact they are mercenaries, but I don't think it really affects their overall rankings...

not like the opposite...

 

[nynasty]

I previously stated that Pedro was the best pitcher that I ever saw. Than i inadvertently proved it in a conversation about Doc Gooden. Check this out:

Seasons with ERA+ over 200:

Clemens-3
Randy-0
Maddux-2
Pedro-5(!)
Seaver-0
Koufax-0
Carlton-0
Ryan-0
Gooden-1

The eyeball test works!

Was 2 1/2 runs under league average in '99

Then over 3 full runs under in '00

Was the most dominant starter I have seen in my baseball watching life.

 

[chappee11]

Was 2 1/2 runs under league average in '99

Then over 3 full runs under in '00

Was the most dominant starter I have seen in my baseball watching life.

We all saw it! There was nothing like vintage Pedro. Glad to get your confirmation, as well.

 

[chappee11]

yea, I am convinced that if the 2nd runoff was Randy Johnson vs Henderson, Johnson Would have won...

Henderson at 14, is probably way to early... but that's what we get in a popular vote doing it like we are doing it... I don't think any of us agree with how this vote has been going...

Yeah. I never would have imagined Rickey this high. I’d probably start giving him consideration in the 25ish range. I’d prefer Griffey, Trout, Gwynn(?) and maybe some others just among OFs. Maybe not Gwynn but it’s close.

 

[msgkings322]

yea, I am convinced that if the 2nd runoff was Randy Johnson vs Henderson, Johnson Would have won...

Henderson at 14, is probably way to early... but that's what we get in a popular vote doing it like we are doing it... I don't think any of us agree with how this vote has been going...

No one agrees with the exact order but that’s part of the fun to me

Also most voters don’t chat here so they probably are ok with things.

 

[Clayton]

The problem I have with Pedro this high is that it would signal that we're valuing peak and Hank Aaron's peak is nowhere near where he went off the board.

 

[chappee11]

I previously stated that Pedro was the best pitcher that I ever saw. Than i inadvertently proved it in a conversation about Doc Gooden. Check this out:

Seasons with ERA+ over 200:

Clemens-3
Randy-0
Maddux-2
Pedro-5(!)
Seaver-0
Koufax-0
Carlton-0
Ryan-0
Gooden-1

The eyeball test works!

Seeing Greinke’s name in this thread made me want to check his stats. He had TWO seasons with ERA+ over 200. Among recent guys with seasons over 200 ERA+

Greinke-2
Scherzer-0
Verlander-1
Kershaw-1 + short 2020 season
Degrom-1 + a season with only 15 starts
Cole-0