POLL Top 10 poll: #14 player ever

[calsnowskier]

I get the feeling that Ohtani is going to be the next player after Clemens. Although Im not entirely sure Clemens is the next player

Ohtani has broken the 4-barrier, and that could be HUGE. I REALLY disagree with it (a vote for him is a vote for potential rather than a vote for achievement), but he is on the board, so he will get placed where he gets placed.

And it appears that this will be a Clemens v Johnson final. And that will be interesting.

 

[calsnowskier]

It was not my intent at all. Gonna get real deep if someone wants to argue they are related. Both are science...one accepted, one taboo....HMMMM.

Both completely legal. Both “recent” developments.

 

[calsnowskier]

I do feel like I need to get my 'Show-Me State' card out when I see someone being ranked on potential.

It'll make this a fun experiment, though. This list will age really well in a decade or look quite embarrassing. It could be the bellbottoms or slap bracelets of the list.

So far, the only real controversial rating in that regard is Bonds at #4. In 10-20 years, he may be generally accepted as the #2 of all time, and putting Mays and Williams ahead of him could be considered spiteful and emotional. But everyone else is really only opinion based about this player over that player.

Maybe Griffey will move up or down as well, but really, I think it is only Trout and Ohtani who will be “controversial”. Trout appears to be what he is, but he is only 32, so a resurgence is still possible. Ohtani likely has most of his argument still to come. And how that goes will dictate everything.

 

[LHG]

Ohtani has broken the 4-barrier, and that could be HUGE. I REALLY disagree with it (a vote for him is a vote for potential rather than a vote for achievement), but he is on the board, so he will get placed where he gets placed.

And it appears that this will be a Clemens v Johnson final. And that will be interesting.

And with Ohtani it just feels like the votes are mainly because of his monstrous DH year in 2024 and people remember he threw pitches in games before and therefore he belongs in the Top 15.

 

[Nosferatu]

Happy Birthday to #1

 

[LHG]

Happy Birthday to #1

Oh, why thank you but its not my birth . . . .

Wait, did you mean number one on the list? Well, that is embarrassing.

 

[calsnowskier]

Oh, why thank you but its not my birth . . . .

Wait, did you mean number one on the list? Well, that is embarrassing.

No.

You are DEFINITELY #2…

 

[Clayton]

So far, the only real controversial rating in that regard is Bonds at #4. In 10-20 years, he may be generally accepted as the #2 of all time

I don't know. I could see this going either way. Most baseball pundits dont even seem like they want to put Bonds on the list.

I suspect Hank Aaron's legend will fade a bit in 10 years when most people are going to be going off advanced metrics.

 

[chappee11]

And with Ohtani it just feels like the votes are mainly because of his monstrous DH year in 2024 and people remember he threw pitches in games before and therefore he belongs in the Top 15.

Ohtani has won 3 MVPs(all unanimous*, by the way)! Reducing him to a “DH with a monster year” feels unnecessarily petty.

*I don’t think any player in MLB, NBA, NHL or NFL has won more than 1 unanimous MVP.

 

[calsnowskier]

I don't know. I could see this going either way. Most baseball pundits dont even seem like they want to put Bonds on the list

You may be right about TODAYS pundits. But the facts simply don’t support that opinion. That is a purely emotional opinion. Based on assumptions and graded levels of acceptance. If you look at the pure facts, he CANNOT be omitted.

PEDS were frowned upon, but NOT outlawed until ‘03-‘05.
Ortiz and others (IRod, Biggio, Bagwell, etc) have already been “accepted” while having the same assumptions levied at them.
Both B&C were no doubt all time greats before they were ever even accused of being “users”.

B&C are vilified because they were prickly or downright assholes. That’s pretty much the long and short of it.

 

[Clayton]

You may be right about TODAYS pundits. But the facts simply don’t support that opinion. That is a purely emotional opinion. Based on assumptions and graded levels of acceptance. If you look at the pure facts, he CANNOT be omitted.

PEDS were frowned upon, but NOT outlawed until ‘03-‘05.
Ortiz and others (IRod, Biggio, Bagwell, etc) have already been “accepted” while having the same assumptions levied at them.
Both B&C were no doubt all time greats before they were ever even accused of being “users”.

B&C are vilified because they were prickly or downright assholes. That’s pretty much the long and short of it.

Like I said, I could see it going either way. I think its more possible that Mays gets hurt by time more than Bonds improves which may result in the same thing. Still, if people are too young to have actually seen Bonds then maybe he loses some momentum.

I think its much more likely Clemens would rise to only be a few behind Bonds as opposed to Bonds climbing but thats pure speculation.

 

[LHG]

No.

You are DEFINITELY #2…

That is just a crappy thing for you to say.

 

[LHG]

Ohtani has won 3 MVPs(all unanimous*, by the way)! Reducing him to a “DH with a monster year” feels unnecessarily petty.

*I don’t think any player in MLB, NBA, NHL or NFL has won more than 1 unanimous MVP.

I obviously don't know how everyone is basing their votes on Ohtani at this point but his year this last season was tremendously exciting and my theory is that, for those who've been voting for him in the polls already, are subconsciously doing so because he was so good so recently. But 2024 was just as stated, he was a DH with a monster year. Had he still been an Angel, or if he had more mild season in 2024, would voters really even consider him at all before we got out of the Top 25? I don't know but I think he is the most extreme case of recency bias we've got. As I've said, I'm willing to give him Top 50 already. That is big considering how short his career is thus far. But the momentum he's gotten so far is hard to understand and the few arguments for it are pretty subjective so I am left having to come up with my own theories.

 

[calsnowskier]

I obviously don't know how everyone is basing their votes on Ohtani at this point but his year this last season was tremendously exciting and my theory is that, for those who've been voting for him in the polls already, are subconsciously doing so because he was so good so recently. But 2024 was just as stated, he was a DH with a monster year. Had he still been an Angel, or if he had more mild season in 2024, would voters really even consider him at all before we got out of the Top 25? I don't know but I think he is the most extreme case of recency bias we've got. As I've said, I'm willing to give him Top 50 already. That is big considering how short his career is thus far. But the momentum he's gotten so far is hard to understand and the few arguments for it are pretty subjective so I am left having to come up with my own theories.

It will be interesting to see what happens to his pitching prowess moving forward. He isn’t going to get the chance to go to the minors for a couple months and find his pitching again the way other post-TJ pitchers do. He will not have a SINGLE rehab start. Not one. How will he recover properly?

this is why I am not a huge fan of the 2-way player. There are just too many distractions to maintain any kind of elite level of play.

 

[msgkings322]

Clemens and Randy J the top nominees with 11 and 10...tied for 3rd with 6 are Henderson and....Ohtani. Interesting.

 

[msgkings322]

And with Ohtani it just feels like the votes are mainly because of his monstrous DH year in 2024 and people remember he threw pitches in games before and therefore he belongs in the Top 15.

This is far from the truth with Ohtani. He didn't just 'throw pitches'

 

[chappee11]

I obviously don't know how everyone is basing their votes on Ohtani at this point but his year this last season was tremendously exciting and my theory is that, for those who've been voting for him in the polls already, are subconsciously doing so because he was so good so recently. But 2024 was just as stated, he was a DH with a monster year. Had he still been an Angel, or if he had more mild season in 2024, would voters really even consider him at all before we got out of the Top 25? I don't know but I think he is the most extreme case of recency bias we've got. As I've said, I'm willing to give him Top 50 already. That is big considering how short his career is thus far. But the momentum he's gotten so far is hard to understand and the few arguments for it are pretty subjective so I am left having to come up with my own theories.

I’ve been supporting him at this level(and earlier). Mostly because he’s the most unique player we’ve seen in 100 years. He’s the best hitter in the game and, when healthy, one of the best pitchers as well(don’t forget he finished 4th for Cy Young in 2022).

Nobody since Babe Ruth can match that skillset. He might be in your top 50 now, but another MVP caliber season where he pitches well? Is he top 20 for you? We’ve never seen anything like this.

 

[calsnowskier]

I’ve been supporting him at this level(and earlier). Mostly because he’s the most unique player we’ve seen in 100 years. He’s the best hitter in the game and, when healthy, one of the best pitchers as well(don’t forget he finished 4th for Cy Young in 2022).

Nobody since Babe Ruth can match that skillset. He might be in your top 50 now, but another MVP caliber season where he pitches well? Is he top 20 for you? We’ve never seen anything like this.

But if he never plays again, and we can only look at the back of his baseball card, and nothing else is ever added to it, do you still rate him this high?

Is he fun to watch? Absolutely. So was Rickey. So was Barry. But their books are complete. We know the full context of their stories. We don’t know the full context of Shohei yet.

 

[chappee11]

But if he never plays again, and we can only look at the back of his baseball card, and nothing else is ever added to it, do you still rate him this high?

Is he fun to watch? Absolutely. So was Rickey. So was Barry. But their books are complete. We know the full context of their stories. We don’t know the full context of Shohei yet.

Yeah, if he never plays another game I’m comfortable saying he was the most unique and talented player that I ever saw and that his 3 unanimous MVPs speak for themselves. I get it that it’s hard to compare him to the all-timers, but this whole exercise consists of impossible comparisons. This is just another example.

 

[jon2tanman]

Just a few random clips.

I had the clip of Clemens vs Matt Nokes but it didn't seem to paste correctly.

randy johnson hits bird with pitch - Search Videos

randy johnson hits bird with pitch - Search Videos <-- vs John Kruk.

Clemens overall resume is a little better than Randy's. The difference for me is that if Randy Johnson played for New York or Boston during his first 7ish years his win totals would be insane. Clemens may have the slightly better resume, but Randy Johnson scared the shit out of hitters. I was at the game when Big Mac hit that massive home run off Randy and hearing the buzz when Big Mac came up to the plate. It was pure power vs power, and I just never felt that if it was Clemens pitching it wouldn't have had that type of awe. Not a Clemens hater by any means as I still have his rookie card and was amazed watching him strike out 19 Mariners one night. P.S. This was an amazing idea to put all this together and I truly love seeing different opinions on the greats of the game.