POLL Top 10 poll #13: #13 player in history - Runoff

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for the #13 player in baseball history. Poll closes on Wednesday AM. If someone does not finish with 50%+1, another runoff will be run.

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[calsnowskier]

Roger Clemens 1984 - 2007

7 CY, 1 MVP, 3 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, 3 top 10 CY, 4 top 10 MVP, 4 more season w MVP votes, 11 ASG

Bold: IP 2, ERA 7, K 5, WHIP 3, K/BB 4

354-184 W-L
4672/1580 K/BB
707/118 GS/CG
4916.2 IP

Randy Johnson 1989 - 2009

HOF, 5 CY, 4 top 5 CY, 1 top 10 CY, 2 top 10 MVP, 7 more season w MVP votes, 10 ASG

Bold: IP 2, ERA 4, K 9, WHIP 3, K/BB 1

303-166 W-L
4875/1497 K/BB
603/100 GS/CG
4135.1 IP

 

[calsnowskier]

Rickey Henderson (LF) 1980 - 2001

1 MVP, 5 top 10 MVP, 1 GG, 10 ASG, 3 SS

111.1, 57.6

Bold: R - 5, SB -12, BB - 4, OPS - 1, all time SB, all time R

OPS+ buckets

180 - 1
140 - 6
120 - 8

Mike Schmidt (3B) 1973 - 1988

3 MVP, 6 top 10 MVP, 10 GG, 12 ASG, 6 SS

106.9, 58.9

Bold: R - 1, HR - 8, RBI - 4, BB - 4, OPS - 5, TB - 3

OPS+ buckets

180 - 1
160 - 2
140 - 9
120 - 1

 

[calsnowskier]

Roger Clemens 1984 - 2007

7 CY, 1 MVP, 3 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, 3 top 10 CY, 4 top 10 MVP, 4 more season w MVP votes, 11 ASG

Bold: IP 2, ERA 7, K 5, WHIP 3, K/BB 4

354-184 W-L
4672/1580 K/BB
707/118 GS/CG
4916.2 IP

Randy Johnson 1989 - 2009

HOF, 5 CY, 4 top 5 CY, 1 top 10 CY, 2 top 10 MVP, 7 more season w MVP votes, 10 ASG

Bold: IP 2, ERA 4, K 9, WHIP 3, K/BB 1

303-166 W-L
4875/1497 K/BB
603/100 GS/CG
4135.1 IP

IMHO, there is only one argument between these two. *. Looking at the numbers and accolades, it really isn’t a debate. And they are contemporaries, so you really don’t need to convert their accomplishments based on era

 

[calsnowskier]

Rickey Henderson (LF) 1980 - 2001

1 MVP, 5 top 10 MVP, 1 GG, 10 ASG, 3 SS

111.1, 57.6

Bold: R - 5, SB -12, BB - 4, OPS - 1, all time SB, all time R

OPS+ buckets

180 - 1
140 - 6
120 - 8

Mike Schmidt (3B) 1973 - 1988

3 MVP, 6 top 10 MVP, 10 GG, 12 ASG, 6 SS

106.9, 58.9

Bold: R - 1, HR - 8, RBI - 4, BB - 4, OPS - 5, TB - 3

OPS+ buckets

180 - 1
160 - 2
140 - 9
120 - 1

Looking at the numbers alone, this is a no brainer. They are close enough, era-wise, to call them contemporaries.

But as has been discussed, Rickey’s argument is not in his batting line. He was a great hitter, but he was not an all-time hitter. His bat does not belong in this discussion. But he is one of only a handful of unicorn players in the history of the game. He was such a distraction on the basepaths that he caused errors in the field and better situations for hitters when he was on base.

Tough argument to make, granted, but if you watched Rickey play, you understand he was different from every other player in the history of the game. But looking at the typical line comparisons, he simply does not compete.

 

[calsnowskier]

This is the first time we have dealt with a pool where we all saw these guys play (I was at Schmidt’s last regular season game (damn you, ASG!!)). This vote will likely be more emotional than any of the previous runoffs.

 

[Clayton]

This is the first time we have dealt with a pool where we all saw these guys play (I was at Schmidt’s last regular season game (damn you, ASG!!)). This vote will likely be more emotional than any of the previous runoffs.

I think they're all pretty good

 

[calsnowskier]

This one will likely come down to Clemens vs Schmidt. And comparing hitters to pitchers is impossible.

Who had the biggest impact on the game? Who helped their teams, seasonally, more? If MLB is still around in 100 years, who will be remembered more?

IMHO, Clemens is the greatest pitcher ever (better than Walter). Schmidt is the greatest 3B. But when all is said, Clemens is just in a different class from Schmidt. He deserves this slot.

 

[calsnowskier]

I think they're all pretty good

 

[steveringo]

IMHO, there is only one argument between these two. *. Looking at the numbers and accolades, it really isn’t a debate. And they are contemporaries, so you really don’t need to convert their accomplishments based on era

Side note:

Last year there were 28 complete games. Three people had 2.

In 1984, Nineteen pitchers had 10 or more...

In 1924, Eighteen pitchers had 50 or more...

 

[DHoey]

Nolan Ryan better be off the board before Clemens.

 

[calsnowskier]

Side note:

Last year there were 28 complete games. Three people had 2.

In 1984, Nineteen pitchers had 10 or more...

In 1924, Eighteen pitchers had 50 or more...

We don’t even have pitchers who have 35 STARTS, let alone 50 COMPLETE GAMES.

 

[calsnowskier]

Nolan Ryan better be off the board before Clemens.

Why?

 

[Clayton]

Nolan Ryan better be off the board before Clemens.

So you're saying Clemens isnt top 30?

 

[calsnowskier]

So you're saying Clemens isnt top 30?

The only argument for Nolan > Clemens is PEDs. I am guessing that he views Clemens as an “off the board entirely” player. I view that as purely emotional with no factual arguments to back it up.

I have ARod “off the board entirely”, but I have facts and benchmarks to back up that OPINION. There are no facts are benchmarks to make that argument for Clemens.

 

[steveringo]

Why?

So you're saying Clemens isnt top 30?

I'm sure that was a joke...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Looking at the numbers alone, this is a no brainer. They are close enough, era-wise, to call them contemporaries.

But as has been discussed, Rickey’s argument is not in his batting line. He was a great hitter, but he was not an all-time hitter. His bat does not belong in this discussion. But he is one of only a handful of unicorn players in the history of the game. He was such a distraction on the basepaths that he caused errors in the field and better situations for hitters when he was on base.

Tough argument to make, granted, but if you watched Rickey play, you understand he was different from every other player in the history of the game. But looking at the typical line comparisons, he simply does not compete.

another way to look at this ... First off, i know Runs and RBIs have just as much about the team and situation than the individual player... BUT lets face it, Henderson's job was to score runs, and Schmidt's job was to drive in runs

Henderson- 13 seasons with 100+ runs, in the strike season he was leading his division in runs with 89... he has 5 bolded seasons in runs

Schmidt- 9 seasons with 100+ RBIs, in the strike season he was leading the league with 91 RBIs... he has 4 bolded seasons...

you can easily say, Henderson was better offensively for his purpose than Schmidt was...

Now, i am still voting for Schmidt, but i must say it is actually closer than i thought...

 

[calsnowskier]

another way to look at this ... First off, i know Runs and RBIs have just as much about the team and situation than the individual player... BUT lets face it, Henderson's job was to score runs, and Schmidt's job was to drive in runs

Henderson- 13 seasons with 100+ runs, in the strike season he was leading his division in runs with 89... he has 5 bolded seasons in runs

Schmidt- 9 seasons with 100+ RBIs, in the strike season he was leading the league with 91 RBIs... he has 4 bolded seasons...

you can easily say, Henderson was better offensively for his purpose than Schmidt was...

Now, i am still voting for Schmidt, but i must say it is actually closer than i thought...

I think I rate Schmidt at #2 behind Clemens in this poll, so I agree with your conclusion. I just think it is unfair to look at Rickey as only his numbers. He is so much more than his numbers.

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm sure that was a joke...

If it was…

 

[steveringo]

another way to look at this ... First off, i know Runs and RBIs have just as much about the team and situation than the individual player... BUT lets face it, Henderson's job was to score runs, and Schmidt's job was to drive in runs

Henderson- 13 seasons with 100+ runs, in the strike season he was leading his division in runs with 89... he has 5 bolded seasons in runs

Schmidt- 9 seasons with 100+ RBIs, in the strike season he was leading the league with 91 RBIs... he has 4 bolded seasons...

you can easily say, Henderson was better offensively for his purpose than Schmidt was...

Now, i am still voting for Schmidt, but i must say it is actually closer than i thought...

Schmidt had 7 seasons with 100+ Runs. Henderson had 0 seasons with 100+ RBI.

Not sure if that matters...